Is Canadian podcasting stuck in a death cycle?
Vol. 73 - Why is 10K downloads a month such a difficult ask for the average Canadian podcaster?
Sge:no geh from Haldimand Treaty Land! Happy Pod the North Tuesday Wednesday!
Thanks for your patience with this later release! Honestly, I’ve hit a motivational wall these days. Too many thoughts and ideas have landed me in a daunting frozen state. Actually, I’ve love your help with this. More below…
In this issue:
How does Canadian Podcasting escape its vicious cycle?
Canadian Indie: Dear Content Creator
True North Podcast: Before I Go
The next Pod the North Picnic… in BURLINGTON!
BTW:
As of May 29, 2025, there are currently 37 long-term drinking water advisories in effect in 35 First Nations communities across Canada.
How does Canadian Podcasting escape its vicious cycle?
I’ve always preferred to be optimistic about the Canadian podcasting industry. Though this newsletter stemmed from a place of frustration, I’ve felt a need to celebrate the good and the low-hanging opportunities for growth, rather than dwell on some of the harsher realities. I don’t love to complain.
Given the state of the world, in 2025 I’ve been feeling pretty zealous about highlighting the many strengths of our ecosystem. But as the year has progressed I’ve found myself confronted with one of the harshest of realities that I can’t get past: Canadian podcasting might be stuck in the same death spiral as all of our other forms of homegrown media and arts.
Canadians just aren’t consuming Canadian content - or at least enough of it. And this problem isn’t necessarily one we can solve with a Bill. There’s a cultural shift that needs to happen in Canadian audiences that can’t be force-fed - it needs abundance.
Too small to support - but why?
Over the last couple years, I’ve found myself in the privileged position where podcast advertising networks have come to me to find Canadian podcasts to work with - to advertise on. They want to break out into the Canadian podcast market and target Canadian audiences in particular, but they’re still using the same age-old measurement of 10,000 downloads a month as their starting place.
For so many reasons this is backwards; downloads are dying, and small audiences are often highly engaged anyway, etc, etc, etc. But especially in Canada, 10K per month is a difficult ask for the majority of our podcasters, which means many quality shows are being overlooked for revenue streams.
At first I thought it was due to our population size, but now I think it’s something else all together: a vicious cycle.
Enter my death spiral theory.
This year I decided to take up reading again, and instead of reading fun fantasy novels and mystery thrillers like my brain truly needed, I went all-in on non-fiction literature about community building, abolition, communication, and anarchy. One book in particular probably changed my life forever. I renewed it over and over again until the library told me I couldn’t anymore.
In it was the visual representation of, essentially, “The Death Spiral of Community”, showing how paradigms of humanity and their oppositions, like play vs. work, abundance vs. scarcity, fear vs. faith, can either make a community expand and grow stronger, or implode on itself. Very a propos!
In the many conversations I’m having with Canadian podcasting community members, I can’t help but see something similar happening in our very own ecosystem, but rather than a death spiral, it’s more of a vicious cycle. And it goes like this:
This cycle can be read clockwise as “so” statements or counterclockwise as “because” statements:
American media is saturating Canadian audiences because there is a lack of Canadian options.
There is a lack of Canadian podcasts because there is a lack of resources to support them.
There is a lack of resources to support Canadian podcasts because Canadian podcasts aren’t taken seriously in Canadian culture.
Canadian podcasts aren’t taken seriously in Canada because we are oversaturated in American content.
OR
American media is saturating Canadian audiences so Canadian podcasts aren’t often taken seriously.
Canadian podcasts aren’t taken seriously so there is a lack of resources in Canada that can create and sustain Canadian podcasts.
There is a lack of resources for Canadian podcasters so there are fewer Canadian podcasts for audiences to fall in love with.
There is a lack of Canadian podcasts so Canadian audiences are saturated with American media.
Given that this is a cycle, it means it’ll just keep going and going and going until something changes, be it a cultural shift in preference toward Canadian content (which could already be happening thanks to our neighbors to the south), or maybe more grant funding for Canadian podcasts which results is more options for Canadians to fall in love with (which we already have an open letter addressing). Probably both.
In my opinion, more resources equals higher audience numbers for Canadian podcasts, and more demand for them in general. This could shift the vicious cycle into a spiral of abundance. But also, maybe its time for advertisers need to update their barrier to entry for everyone’s sake?
Of course, my Libra-justice-brain is feeling a sense of urgency and responsibility around this. I have a spreadsheet full of ideas and intitiaves that Pod the North is ready and willing to take on, and no time or resources myself to do it. Hense the freeze state mentioned at the top of this issue.
That’s why I’d LOVE to hear from you, whether its an email or a comment! Tell me your thoughts on the vicious cycle, what you need for your podcast to thrive, and what you’d love to see from Pod the North. Pretty please?
How to support Pod the North:
Thank you to Pod the North’s 20 paid subscribers!
You help fund marketing, events, speaking engagements, and the many intiatives Pod the North is looking to take on to help Canadian podcasters come together and be globally recognized!
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Check out this Canadian Indie: Dear Content Creator
A love letter to the underdogs in the creator world.
The ultimate guide for creators who work tirelessly behind the scenes—conceptualizing, filming, editing, and hustling every day. Hosted by CharisMaggie, dive deep into the real stories behind content creation—the struggles, the wins, and the lessons learned. Expect unfiltered conversations about the highs and lows of the creator journey, actionable tips to elevate your content game, and exclusive sit down chats with fellow content creators. No sugarcoating, just real talk from someone who’s been in the trenches for over eight years.
True North Podcast Feature: Before I Go
Death is not an ending but a change of worlds.
Indigenous nations have a long history with ceremony and tradition around death. A member of the Gitxaala Nation in BC, Marion Brown has Pulmonary Hypertension (PH). PH is a chronic progressive condition that will, as with other members of her family, eventually take her life. And so, Marion has made the decision to use the MAiD program when she feels the time is appropriate. An experienced documentary producer and interviewer in her own right, Marion will turn the microphone around on herself. Along with family and many professional experts, she and her daughter Danielle will share this extraordinary journey with you.
What’s going on in Canada’s podcast ecosystem:
New Releases:
May 16, 2025 — ICYMI: System Crash is the new podcast from Paris Marx and Brian Merchant dissecting the tech stories that matter, breaking news, offering expert commentary, and interviewing journalists, whistleblowers, authors, and tech workers and ordinary people fighting back against the tech giants who have conquered — some would say killed — the internet.
Jul 3, 2025 — The Bridge Podcast is the new show sharing conversations with seniors to bridge the gap between generations. The first episode features Professor Michael Gervers, who has spent a lot of time in Ethiopia doing field research and has now been a history professor at the University of Toronto for almost 50 years.
Jul 29, 2025 — StanLand is the new show from the Sonar Network and created by Mike Sacks and S.G. Wilson that comes out later this month! The five-part satirical audio series featuring Rhea Seehorn, Bobby Moynihan, Steve Little, Timm Sharp, Jon Hamm, John Waters, and more. It’s a story that begins with a dusty Ikea wardrobe… and ends in a magical realm slowly being swallowed up by fast food chains, retail shopping, and vape stores.
You oughta know…
Canada is mourning the devastating loss of Olivia Michaelczuk, Co-Host of Paper Cut Winnipeg, and her partner Brendan Berg of the band Royal Canoe, who were killed in a car crash on Canada Day. Olivia was also was a strong voice in the Polaris Music Prize community, having served on the jury since 2019. Please send your love to the families and friends of Olivia and Brendan.
Are you concerned about the ethics of podcasting? Rapid technological changes have made it easier than ever to create podcasts. Technical how-to information is easily found online, but podcasters wishing to practice their craft in an ethical, caring, and responsible way are often left to handle complex situations on their own. Interested podcast creators, listeners, and academic experts are invited to join a working group to develop best practice guidelines for ethical podcasting. Join the conversation by completing this Google form. If you have further questions, please contact Alison Innes at podcastinghumanities@gmail.com or ainnes@brocku.ca. You can learn more about Alison and her academic research at her Project PhDcast website.
Jeff Humphreys (The Calgary Sessions, Shortline Media) is getting ready to open a brand new 3000 sq ft, four room studio space in Calgary! On LinkedIn, Jeff described Off Set Studios as “a place for professional creatives to capture anything and everything on camera. From corporate interviews, podcast production, music videos, tv commercials, portrait photography, product photography and anything else that needs a cool space to operate in.”
Sequel is hiring for an Associate Producer to join the team on a short-term, full-time contract. The role supports the development and production of a branded finance audio/video podcast series, and works closely with an Executive Producer, a Showrunner, and a video production team. Running from July 21-Dec 21, pay is $30,000 - $37,500 CAD for the contract period.
Sequel also recently signed on as a sponsor for the Podcasting, Seriously Fund, which supports independent BIPOC, Queer and Trans audio producers in both submitting high-quality work to media/journalism awards and receiving further production education and training.
Congratulations to Terry O’Reilly and the Apostrophe Podcasts team whose show Under the Influence is celebrating 20 years on CBC Radio, and ALSO just had a second show, We Regret To Inform You, picked up for radio this summer!
Events:
July 12, 2025 — [LANGLEY, BC] Be a part of a new laughing world record! Finding Fun, the new podcast from Treena Innes, is hosting “Laughter Around the World: The Record-Breaking Laugh Session”, a bold attempt to gather 150 people from around the globe to share 150 consecutive laughs—live and online. Register to participate!
July 27, 2025 — [BURLINGTON, ON] Don’t miss the next Pod the North Picnic in Burlington! Join the hang for some socializing and community bonding with peers from across the industry. Kristi Lee (Canadian True Crime) is also set to join for a discussion on telling investigative stories responsibly when you aren’t a trained journalist. RSVP now!
Good Reads:
Simon Owens | Why podcast ads demand higher prices than YouTube ads
THE GRAIN | How can Canada develop AI policy for creatives?
Just Joe (pre much needed face-trim)…
Thanks for supporting Pod the North, I’ll be back in your inbox in two weeks!
Kattie
BSKY: @podthenorth.bsky.social | IN: @podthenorth
(As someone whose two podcasts are well past the 10,000 monthly download mark ...)
In all of my reading of Canadian history, what is clear is that Canadians jumping past Canadian culture has always been a huge problem. Always. Right back to the late 1800s when cheap US paperbacks flooded the market and many Canadian publishers wanted to try to just get US rights to make money.
Ultimately, this is a problem with Canada itself. We are still a colonial outpost and like all colonial outposts, the production of culture needs to be intentional. We need to pour money into Canadian cultural production, including stuff that seems frivolous and silly.
Unless you can live as an artist in a place, you will never create the infrastructure necessary to allow people to create art and culture. It's basic economics. And while a news podcast like mine will never compete with Canadians' appetite for US news, that should matter -- we need public support to be findable, to be networked across other platforms and to allow us to operate a small team. And critically, producers need to be paid. Even the ad dollars that we make are embarassingly low (like if we crack $300 per month, it's a surprise). The for profit model does not work for quality news or culture and we need to be starting there when thinking through fixing things.
I also have written about this more broadly here --
https://noraloreto.substack.com/p/what-canadian-nationalism
My passion lies in community news, reflective journalism, audio journalism in rural Canada. I had an audience for it, nowhere near 10,000 downloads but it was a niche. I had a substantial sponsor for a couple of seasons.
I took the courses (GNI - StartUp Bootcamp, Indiegraf StartUp - unsure of the title in 2022), gave it my best shot and finally, after the third season, my husband said, "We're paying for your podcast now". I also got severely burnt out. I had to abandon it for the time being.
The US has incredible support for non-profit news from educational institutions, foundations, news foundations, corporate America. We don't have that in Canada.
Podcasts don't qualify for arts grants.
Many don't qualify for journalism grants.
(I realize almost all of you know this)
Canadians want to put their money into subscriptions that tell them what they already believe.
The radio ad model counted on journalists getting paid less than the folks selling the ads, and competing with one another for air time, while journalism schools cranked out a new graduating co-hort each year, with folks ready to work for peanuts for a chance to be on-air. The companies got rich on the ad dollars, the sales folks got a cut, the journalist got to be on the air.
Subscription models are also precarious, although some have made a go of it with digital subscriptions but it's rare to see a podcast/audio journalism shop make it work financially AND pay producers and a team a decent wage, without adding a digital newsletter of some description.
Nora's right, (I deeply respect Nora and her work) there needs to be public funding. I would also add that journalism is due for a disruption in general, like I mean flip the table kind of disruption, and new, or renewed funding models (think co-operative networks - my interest is in a rural one). But it needs a big cash injection, and space for innovation (which means failing) to find its footing.