(As someone whose two podcasts are well past the 10,000 monthly download mark ...)
In all of my reading of Canadian history, what is clear is that Canadians jumping past Canadian culture has always been a huge problem. Always. Right back to the late 1800s when cheap US paperbacks flooded the market and many Canadian publishers wanted to try to just get US rights to make money.
Ultimately, this is a problem with Canada itself. We are still a colonial outpost and like all colonial outposts, the production of culture needs to be intentional. We need to pour money into Canadian cultural production, including stuff that seems frivolous and silly.
Unless you can live as an artist in a place, you will never create the infrastructure necessary to allow people to create art and culture. It's basic economics. And while a news podcast like mine will never compete with Canadians' appetite for US news, that should matter -- we need public support to be findable, to be networked across other platforms and to allow us to operate a small team. And critically, producers need to be paid. Even the ad dollars that we make are embarassingly low (like if we crack $300 per month, it's a surprise). The for profit model does not work for quality news or culture and we need to be starting there when thinking through fixing things.
I also have written about this more broadly here --
It's called "Expect Resistance" from CrimethInc. There should be a version in most libraries, and they have a program where if there isn't, they'll send one!
As a writer of fiction, and an Anglo in Quebec, and as a board member of Access Copyright, the (English) copyright collective in this country, the supply and demand equation for Canadian “content” is…fraught. American weight, for sure, but also (English) Canadian indifference and also some laziness (quick: is there an easier media job in this country than the programmer buyer for, say, CTV?). This extends beyond culture but culture and myth more specifically are at the heart of any national project. Our population is a factor but not really. Our geography is certainly a factor. Our language, then, in the English parts, is the issue. We produce thousands of books in this country. And songs. And artworks. And movies. And, yes, podcasts. The nationalism we see now is a reflexive; it is not deep. And won’t have anyone clamoring for a Canadian version of The Bear.
My passion lies in community news, reflective journalism, audio journalism in rural Canada. I had an audience for it, nowhere near 10,000 downloads but it was a niche. I had a substantial sponsor for a couple of seasons.
I took the courses (GNI - StartUp Bootcamp, Indiegraf StartUp - unsure of the title in 2022), gave it my best shot and finally, after the third season, my husband said, "We're paying for your podcast now". I also got severely burnt out. I had to abandon it for the time being.
The US has incredible support for non-profit news from educational institutions, foundations, news foundations, corporate America. We don't have that in Canada.
Podcasts don't qualify for arts grants.
Many don't qualify for journalism grants.
(I realize almost all of you know this)
Canadians want to put their money into subscriptions that tell them what they already believe.
The radio ad model counted on journalists getting paid less than the folks selling the ads, and competing with one another for air time, while journalism schools cranked out a new graduating co-hort each year, with folks ready to work for peanuts for a chance to be on-air. The companies got rich on the ad dollars, the sales folks got a cut, the journalist got to be on the air.
Subscription models are also precarious, although some have made a go of it with digital subscriptions but it's rare to see a podcast/audio journalism shop make it work financially AND pay producers and a team a decent wage, without adding a digital newsletter of some description.
Nora's right, (I deeply respect Nora and her work) there needs to be public funding. I would also add that journalism is due for a disruption in general, like I mean flip the table kind of disruption, and new, or renewed funding models (think co-operative networks - my interest is in a rural one). But it needs a big cash injection, and space for innovation (which means failing) to find its footing.
It's called "Expect Resistance" from CrimethInc. There should be a version in most libraries, and they have a program where if there isn't, they'll send one!
I don't think this is a uniquely Canadian issue - 10,000 downloads a month is a big ask for the vast majority of podcasters globally (as is shown by numerous industry reports and stats), and there's a good chance they'll never see that number. So this comes down to education to advertisers on why this is not the metric to be looking at - yes, it's a starting point, but they need to go beyond it.
I also don't believe it's because there are "too many American podcasts" saturating our potential audience. Listeners choose based on their interested, needs at a time, and quality of content - no-one is forcing them to listen to US podcasts, or UK podcasts, or European podcasts, etc. The choice is there - podcasters need to do a better job of marketing themselves, and thinking like a business if they want to grow.
This may come across as "abrupt" and apologies for that (how Canadian!) but we have to stop blaming others and look at ourselves and what we can do to improve. I'm not too sure the open letter thing is the right way, but that's another topic for another time. :)
All great points! I think advertisers are certainly overdue for education on looking past downloads - this is going to be a big conversation in the near future I think!
I still think there's an over saturation of American content.
When I think about the American podcasts I listen to, I would absolutely listen to Canadian version of them and even prefer them, but they just aren't out there (and I spend A LOT of time trying to find them both for this newsletter and out of preference). I think with more choice, there would be a lot more Canadian indie "hits". I think if there were more Canadian "bangers" coming from indies, the our content would be taken a lot more seriously.
Totally agree that there's always work to do in how to market your show - but that also takes time and knowhow and resources. Only so much can be done off the side of your desk. I've seen the proof in the pudding of how much money, at the end of the day, can vastly grow a show in meaningful ways if a podcaster uses it with time and intention. It's wild to me that funding models in Canada aren't supporting podcasting when our traditional media is also in a death spiral. How can any Canadian voices stand out?
Maybe this is an episode of In and Around podcasting? ;)
(As someone whose two podcasts are well past the 10,000 monthly download mark ...)
In all of my reading of Canadian history, what is clear is that Canadians jumping past Canadian culture has always been a huge problem. Always. Right back to the late 1800s when cheap US paperbacks flooded the market and many Canadian publishers wanted to try to just get US rights to make money.
Ultimately, this is a problem with Canada itself. We are still a colonial outpost and like all colonial outposts, the production of culture needs to be intentional. We need to pour money into Canadian cultural production, including stuff that seems frivolous and silly.
Unless you can live as an artist in a place, you will never create the infrastructure necessary to allow people to create art and culture. It's basic economics. And while a news podcast like mine will never compete with Canadians' appetite for US news, that should matter -- we need public support to be findable, to be networked across other platforms and to allow us to operate a small team. And critically, producers need to be paid. Even the ad dollars that we make are embarassingly low (like if we crack $300 per month, it's a surprise). The for profit model does not work for quality news or culture and we need to be starting there when thinking through fixing things.
I also have written about this more broadly here --
https://noraloreto.substack.com/p/what-canadian-nationalism
ugh, always an honour and a pleasure to get your perspective Nora! Thanks for sharing this!
Love this newsletter, it articulated so much of what I've been feeling!
Also, what is the book with the community death spiral in it? I would love to read it!
It's called "Expect Resistance" from CrimethInc. There should be a version in most libraries, and they have a program where if there isn't, they'll send one!
https://crimethinc.com/books/expect-resistance
Thank you!
As a writer of fiction, and an Anglo in Quebec, and as a board member of Access Copyright, the (English) copyright collective in this country, the supply and demand equation for Canadian “content” is…fraught. American weight, for sure, but also (English) Canadian indifference and also some laziness (quick: is there an easier media job in this country than the programmer buyer for, say, CTV?). This extends beyond culture but culture and myth more specifically are at the heart of any national project. Our population is a factor but not really. Our geography is certainly a factor. Our language, then, in the English parts, is the issue. We produce thousands of books in this country. And songs. And artworks. And movies. And, yes, podcasts. The nationalism we see now is a reflexive; it is not deep. And won’t have anyone clamoring for a Canadian version of The Bear.
My passion lies in community news, reflective journalism, audio journalism in rural Canada. I had an audience for it, nowhere near 10,000 downloads but it was a niche. I had a substantial sponsor for a couple of seasons.
I took the courses (GNI - StartUp Bootcamp, Indiegraf StartUp - unsure of the title in 2022), gave it my best shot and finally, after the third season, my husband said, "We're paying for your podcast now". I also got severely burnt out. I had to abandon it for the time being.
The US has incredible support for non-profit news from educational institutions, foundations, news foundations, corporate America. We don't have that in Canada.
Podcasts don't qualify for arts grants.
Many don't qualify for journalism grants.
(I realize almost all of you know this)
Canadians want to put their money into subscriptions that tell them what they already believe.
The radio ad model counted on journalists getting paid less than the folks selling the ads, and competing with one another for air time, while journalism schools cranked out a new graduating co-hort each year, with folks ready to work for peanuts for a chance to be on-air. The companies got rich on the ad dollars, the sales folks got a cut, the journalist got to be on the air.
Subscription models are also precarious, although some have made a go of it with digital subscriptions but it's rare to see a podcast/audio journalism shop make it work financially AND pay producers and a team a decent wage, without adding a digital newsletter of some description.
Nora's right, (I deeply respect Nora and her work) there needs to be public funding. I would also add that journalism is due for a disruption in general, like I mean flip the table kind of disruption, and new, or renewed funding models (think co-operative networks - my interest is in a rural one). But it needs a big cash injection, and space for innovation (which means failing) to find its footing.
All incredible points!
I’ll have more later but I’m super curious what the name of the book is.
It's called "Expect Resistance" from CrimethInc. There should be a version in most libraries, and they have a program where if there isn't, they'll send one!
https://crimethinc.com/books/expect-resistance
Thank you!
I don't think this is a uniquely Canadian issue - 10,000 downloads a month is a big ask for the vast majority of podcasters globally (as is shown by numerous industry reports and stats), and there's a good chance they'll never see that number. So this comes down to education to advertisers on why this is not the metric to be looking at - yes, it's a starting point, but they need to go beyond it.
I also don't believe it's because there are "too many American podcasts" saturating our potential audience. Listeners choose based on their interested, needs at a time, and quality of content - no-one is forcing them to listen to US podcasts, or UK podcasts, or European podcasts, etc. The choice is there - podcasters need to do a better job of marketing themselves, and thinking like a business if they want to grow.
This may come across as "abrupt" and apologies for that (how Canadian!) but we have to stop blaming others and look at ourselves and what we can do to improve. I'm not too sure the open letter thing is the right way, but that's another topic for another time. :)
All great points! I think advertisers are certainly overdue for education on looking past downloads - this is going to be a big conversation in the near future I think!
I still think there's an over saturation of American content.
When I think about the American podcasts I listen to, I would absolutely listen to Canadian version of them and even prefer them, but they just aren't out there (and I spend A LOT of time trying to find them both for this newsletter and out of preference). I think with more choice, there would be a lot more Canadian indie "hits". I think if there were more Canadian "bangers" coming from indies, the our content would be taken a lot more seriously.
Totally agree that there's always work to do in how to market your show - but that also takes time and knowhow and resources. Only so much can be done off the side of your desk. I've seen the proof in the pudding of how much money, at the end of the day, can vastly grow a show in meaningful ways if a podcaster uses it with time and intention. It's wild to me that funding models in Canada aren't supporting podcasting when our traditional media is also in a death spiral. How can any Canadian voices stand out?
Maybe this is an episode of In and Around podcasting? ;)
Poignant to the discussion? https://broadcastdialogue.com/tpx-to-file-notice-of-intention-under-the-bankruptcy-and-insolvency-act/