Why it’s so hard to make a living with Canadian podcasts.
Vol. 65 - A new campaign says "Look for the Leaf", and Annalise Nielsen addresses pressing issues in Canadian podcasting.
Hihi!! Happy Pod the North Tuesday, and Happy Birthday to the love of my life, Mark!
In this issue:
Join the “Look for the Leaf” campaign!
Annalise Nielsen shares why it’s so hard to make a living with Canadian podcasts.
Canadian Indie: Yalla Let's Talk
True North Feature: BLOODLINES: Tales of Indigenous Women
5 new Canadian podcast releases!
Soundwave Summit returns May 4th!
BTW:
As of March 11, 2025, there are currently 35 long-term drinking water advisories in effect in 33 First Nations communities across Canada.
In honour of Podcasthon 2025, I recently talked to Water First on a special episode of Canardian, Canada’s leading charity dedicated to working in partnership with Indigenous communities to address local water challenges. Don’t miss it!
Canadian Podcasts UNITE! Join “Look for the Leaf”.
Last week I received this exciting email from Canadian broadcasting legend, Terry O’Reilly (Under The Influence, Apostrophe Podcasts):
The Canadian podcast charts are full of American shows.
We want to start a campaign to convince Canadians to listen to the bevy of amazing Canadian podcasts that are available.
Right now, Canadians are looking for ways to identify Canadian products. We have an idea.
By placing a small red maple leaf on your cover art, listeners can quickly identify Canadian shows. And our hope is that – in this unique window of Canadian patriotism – people will give more Canadian podcasts a try.
And when discovery happens, we all win.
This will only work if we all do it together and spread the word to other Canadian podcasters.
Together, we can make a difference.
Obviously, I’m completely on board with this and believe you should be too.
The maple meaf in podcast artwork certainly isn’t new. The Globe and Mail’s podcasts, Toronto Mike’d, Canada is Boring, Canadian History Ehx, Commons, At The Letters, and so many more, have already had iterations of the familiar symbol in their artwork already. But Terry told me that right now is a particularly notable time for all Canadian podcasters to be even more intentional about it.
“Canada is at a very interesting inflection point,” Terry told me over email. “Now, more than any other time in recent history, Canadians want clear ways to identify Canadian-made products.”
Outside of Apostrophe podcasts, shows that have already joined the Look for the Leaf movement include: Canadian True Crime, Island Crime, and Canardian (of course)!
Download the official maple leaf here, and add it to your cover art! It’s super easy to add simply using the blank podcast cover template on Canva.
But don’t forget SEO!
Along with scrolling through the apps and identifying familiarities in podcast artwork, remember that Canadian podcast listeners are also likely looking for Canadian podcasts through the search functions on their favourite podcast app, so now is the time to audit your podcast description for Canadian identifiers that algorithms and search engines can catch!
Consider how you can include the words “Made in Canada”, “Canadian” or even your province or territory’s name into your podcast description.
“Grocery stores now mark Canadian products. Ads and commercials now say, ‘Made in Canada for Canadians, by Canadians.’ And that should extend to podcasts, too,” says Terry. “There are so many great Canadian shows to listen to - and we can help Canadians identify those shows by placing a small maple leaf on every Canadian podcast. It’s like a flag pin on a digital backpack. If you want to support Canadian creators - ‘Look for the Leaf.’”
Think about supporting Pod the North!
It’s $8 a month or $80 a year, plus you get bonus content like full audio interviews and early releases!
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Thoughts from the ecosystem:
Annalise Nielsen shares why it’s so hard to make a living with Canadian podcasts.
When it comes to making a living in podcasts, Annalise Nielsen has been on one heck of a roller-coaster ride. Among her many notable credentials, today Annalise found her footing as Head of Podcast Strategy and Developement at Lower Street.
Annalise is contributing to this issue of Pod the North to share her take on the state of Canadian podcasting in 2025, the challenges we’re up against, and how to move forward.
The State of the Canadian Podcast Industry
by Annalise Nielsen.
I’ve been making a living in podcasting for over 8 years now, which still makes me something of an anomaly in Canada. From producing my own indie podcast in 2017, to working with a network of independent podcasters. From working in monetization for a large Canadian corporation’s podcast network, to later moving over to their recently acquired branded podcast agency. I’ve gotten a good amount of insight into where the money is in podcasting in Canada.
Then, last summer, that large media corporation decided to shut down the branded podcast agency where I was working, and I found myself seeking a new job in podcasting for the first time in 5 years.
This led me to a UK-based production company, where I currently work, and I feel very lucky for that opportunity. I didn’t set out seeking a job with a non-Canadian company, but this was the best opportunity for me at the time. And the process of seeking new opportunities in podcasting in 2024 has highlighted just how challenging the last couple of years have been for Canadian podcasting.
Now I’m navigating a new phase of life: getting ready to welcome our first baby in May. And the process of navigating Canada’s ridiculous maternity leave bureaucracy has made me even more aware of how our weakened podcast industry is impacting those of us who have been working hard to build it into a legitimate business in Canada. I didn’t consciously seek out an opportunity outside of Canada– it felt like the necessary decision because of the lack of options left for Canadians serious about podcasting. And after 8 years, that’s a disappointing place to be.
With all this on my mind, I thought I wanted to share my thoughts (just mine!!! only my opinions!!!) on the current state of the Canadian podcast ecosystem.
Why is it so hard to make a living with Canadian podcasts?
To start, let’s dive into one of the biggest challenges for Canadian podcasts: scale.
To put it simply, the math doesn’t math.
The majority of the monetization models in podcasting rely on scale. Advertising is largely sold through a CPM model (cost per mille, or cost per thousand impressions), which means the more downloads you get, the more revenue you can earn. Listener-supported models rely on scale as well– more subscribers means more revenue.
Canada’s population is around 40 million (just over 10% of the U.S). That means if you’re creating content only for Canadian listeners, your potential revenue is roughly 10% of what an American podcast could generate.
This leads to a cyclical problem: smaller potential audiences make it harder to secure upfront investment for production, which leads to leaner productions, which leads to even smaller audiences, making it harder to attract advertisers, and so on.
This isn’t just a podcasting problem– it’s an issue across all of Canadian media. To some extent, other mediums have been able to make things work through tax credits and government-funded arts grants. And that’s great! But in my experience, these grants either explicitly exclude podcasts, or are basically insufficient to fund serious podcast production.
This is also the justification for Canada’s media oligopolies (I don’t have to name them here, if you’re Canadian you already know who I’m referring to). With limited population size, the argument in general for Canada’s oligopolies (across sectors) is that our population is so small, one or two large companies need to own all the infrastructure and channels, in order to achieve enough scale and generate enough revenue to keep the business afloat.
The issue with this corporate consolidation (or, one issue among many) is that when these media companies decide to pull back their investments, the ripple effect can leave an entire industry floundering.
The Problems With One Company Owning Everything
Like podcasting elsewhere in the world, podcasting in Canada began with indie creators. Many of these early podcasters also struggled to generate scale or revenue, but these were mainly passion-projects anyways. There was very little competition for listener attention then, and it was easy to become a big fish in a small pond– sometimes even possible to generate enough revenue from Patreon or a few particularly innovative sponsors to keep the show afloat.
Then, the large media companies started to take notice. From repurposing radio shows, to launching full-blown networks, to acquiring any seemingly successful podcast entity, these large organizations were seemingly indicating a shift towards the future with an investment in podcasts. (Given how things have shaken out since then, it’s hard for me to see this as anything beyond an attempt to demonstrate to shareholders some semblance of a plan to solve for a softening radio marketing. But that’s just my opinion.)
At first, this seemed promising—people with money were paying attention and cash was flowing into podcasting! But, at least for me, that hope was short-lived.
Most of these “investments” were still relatively small. Many of the people hired (or “restructured”) into leadership positions did not come from a podcasting background or were expected to split their time across other divisions. To be fair, people can totally pivot their careers and learn podcasting on the job. But this takes time– something that was not properly accounted for when setting goals. Plus, decision-makers need to be fully invested in the medium, not view it as an afterthought or a threat to a medium they actually care about (in most cases, radio). Expectations for immediate revenue were generally unrealistic, crafted based on comparisons to long-established traditional media businesses.
Another issue is that traditional broadcast media is limited by both geography and infrastructure. This, combined with Canadian content laws, means that Canadians have access to a limited number of broadcast TV channels and radio stations, all controlled by a handful of large corporations. So there’s really not much competition. Canadian television and radio doesn’t have to be good– it just has to be better than the other two or three options out there. You don’t compete by being good, you compete by buying up all the channels available. This doesn’t breed a culture of excellence in media production, and has created a lack of incentive to innovate or improve in Canadian media.
But this model doesn’t work in podcasting. Unlike traditional broadcast media, podcasting is a global medium and requires very little investment to launch (relative to a television or radio station). Canadian podcasts are not competing only with other Canadian podcasters. They’re up against every other podcast out there. For Canadian media companies used to a more controlled environment with clear borders, this shift has been challenging.
The global nature of podcasts actually presents a huge opportunity for Canadian podcasters. We have the potential to break free of our tiny population, tell Canadian stories for global audiences, and monetize limitless audiences. But, for whatever reason, large Canadian media corporations have also shown little (or no) interest in marketing or monetizing their shows outside of Canada.
So we’re back to the same cycle again: low investment in content quality, small audiences, no interest in international monetization, and low revenue potential.
Ultimately, after a couple of years of “trying” podcasts, this low revenue led many (all?) of these large media corporations to reduce or pull their podcast investments. And, after having scooped up most successful Canadian independent podcasts or podcast companies, these cancellations and pulled investments have left the industry in a precarious position.
The Reservations of Canadian Advertisers
Another factor making things difficult for podcasters in Canada (whether independent or corporate-backed) is the reluctance of Canadian advertisers to embrace podcasting.
Canadian brands tend to be conservative when it comes to advertising. They’re slow to shift budgets from traditional channels to newer ones (like podcasts). Plus, Canadian agencies are also stretched very thin. Media buying agencies in particular are working with smaller teams and tighter budgets than you’d see in the States. Whereas an American media buyer might be hired as a specialist in one type of advertising, Canadian buyers are often expected to be generalists and buy everything from TV ads to social media. If you’re managing ads across all these channels, why would you take it upon yourself to propose an entirely new channel to your client? Why would you make the extra work for yourself of learning the nuances of podcasting? Frankly, I don’t blame them for steering away from podcasting.
Plus, Canadian podcasters haven’t exactly made things easy for advertisers. There’s a disconnect when it comes to understanding podcast advertising technology and speaking the language of advertisers. Whether it’s a lack of tools to generate reports, poor communication around podcast advertising, or simply an overall image problem, we’re not aligning with advertisers’ needs. Even large Canadian corporations, for the most part, have not invested in the talent or the tools necessary to support advertisers effectively.
Until podcasters can bridge this gap, Canadian brands will continue to shy away from podcast advertising– and I can’t blame them.
The CBC: A Double-Edged Sword
Let me begin this section by saying I love the CBC. I believe it plays a vital role in Canadian media– we need strong publicly-funded media, especially given our small population. It ensures we have access to essential local journalism that otherwise would not be financially viable, and many of Canada’s most successful podcasters have come from the CBC.
That said, the CBC is also currently creating challenges for all other podcasters in Canada.
With taxpayer dollars available, the CBC can afford high-quality production, which attracts large Canadian (and international) audiences. And that’s great! I’m super proud of the incredible shows coming out of the CBC.
But here’s the problem: Unlike other public broadcasters, the CBC is allowed to monetize Canadian podcast impressions with Canadian advertisers. And those high-quality productions attract the majority of the Canadian advertisers interested in podcasts. Realistically, if you’re looking to advertise on podcasts in Canada, wouldn’t your first stop be the CBC?
This leaves little room for podcasts from the private sector to succeed in the Canadian market.
What’s the solution here? Well, it’s definitely NOT defunding the CBC. On the contrary, I’d love to see the CBC funded to the point that they don’t need to rely on advertising dollars at all (at least, not Canadian advertising dollars).
Rather than focusing solely on Canadian audiences and Canadian advertisers, our public broadcaster could be a vessel for taking Canadian content global. Look at K-pop—government-backed support for the Korean music industry has helped spread Korean culture worldwide. The CBC has been taking steps towards this, partnering with the BBC, USG Audio, and other non-Canadian producers on a number of Canadian stories with global impact. This model not only means larger global audiences (and, therefore, more potential revenue to tell even bigger stories), it also helps increase global interest in Canada, ultimately benefiting the entire Canadian podcasting ecosystem.
Conclusion
Canadian podcasting is at a crossroads. While the challenges aren’t small, there are clear pathways forward. By focusing on international growth, making it easier for Canadian advertisers to invest in podcasts, and exploring diverse revenue streams, Canadian podcasters can build a better ecosystem. We need a strong public broadcaster, but one that does not throttle the potential for the private sector to also thrive.
Podcasting has been gobbled up and spit out by large Canadian media corporations in the last few years. But we have the talent. We have the stories. We just need to work together to build a stronger ecosystem and get creative about bringing more capital into Canadian podcasting.
— Annalise
Check out this Canadian Indie: Yalla Let's Talk
As diverse as the world is, the narrative is not.
“Changing the narrative, one conversation at a time. Hosted by Hani Dajani, each episode features conversations with creatives and experts about all things that matter to our community. Our mission is to make you feel heard, seen, and connected.”
True North Podcast Feature: BLOODLINES: Tales of Indigenous Women
In the lives of Native Americans, we all have one thing in common- bloodlines.
“The bloodlines are what connect our past to our future. In this podcast, we talk with Indigenous women who are impacting their world for the better in big ways and small ways, while never forgetting to go back to their roots. Join, Jeane Burgess, member of the Peoria Tribe of Oklahoma, as she has conversations with powerful Native American women who are making a difference in their neighborhood, communities and their world.”
What’s going on in Canada’s podcast ecosystem:
New Releases:
Mar 4, 2025 — Braaains is back! The podcast is exploring the inner workings of brains, mental health, & disabilities and how film & television portray them. The first episode is looking at how family separation via migrant labour work impacts mental health.
Mar 7, 2025 — Weird Era has returned with it’s eighth season! A podcast is hosted by Sruti Islam and Alex Nierenhausen and “asks authors the right questions”. The first episode features Torrey Peters and her novel Stag Dance.
Mar 11, 2025 — Elbows Up is the new podcast for Canada, in a dangerous new world. The project healms from Jordan Heath-Rawlings (Frequency Podcast Network), Laura Palmer (Island Crime), and Mat Keselman, and gives Canadians real work we can take on right now, individually and as a country, to emerge from the chaos strong and free. This isn't a show about picking a fight. It's a show about being ready for one.
Mar 11, 2025 — Cities 1.5 has returned to speak truth to power in its fifth season. The world is standing on the brink…the deepening impacts of the climate crisis, rising inequality and increasing levels of economic turmoil are affecting us all. Mayors, cities, academics, scientists, economists, activists and civil society must step up and form a global axis of resistance to challenge those who threaten our way of life. Join the global resistance!
Mar 18, 2025 — Dear Content Creator from CharisMaggie is back for a second season! The show is the ultimate resource for creators who work tirelessly behind the scenes—conceptualizing, filming, editing, and hustling every day. No sugarcoating, just real talk from someone who’s been in the trenches for over eight years.
You Oughta Know…
Don’t miss your opportunity to speak at PodSummit YYC 2025! PodSummit is looking for dynamic and engaging speakers with valuable insights, unique ideas, and captivating stories in areas like podcast growth, storytelling, video, and technology (or really any topic in podcasting!). Applications close on Friday March 21st, 2025, selected speakers will be notified by May 1st, 2025.
JAR Audio has announced the 3rd annual Emerging Women in Podcasting Pilot competition. The competition encourages all women-identifying emerging podcast creators to pitch their ideas. The winner gets a professionally produced audio podcast pilot episode, with full support from JAR’s talented team, and creators retain full ownership rights to their projects.
Craig Baird of Canadian History Ehx has a new book coming out in May: Canada's Main Street: The Epic Story of The Trans-Canada Highway. The book tells the epic story of the Trans-Canada from conception to completion, an absorbing tale of the political intrigue, budgetary disasters, and heroic innovation that created our 7000-kilometre national lifeline.
Tianna Marinucci at Quill Podcasting says its time for branded podcasts to “explore the untapped potential of underserved markets in podcasting, including parents, blue-collar workers, and global audiences.” Check out their blog on audience growth opportunity and tapping into underserved markets.
Terry O’Reilly has arrived in Times Square, Manhattan! Last week unveiled a massive "Under the Influence" billboard, in honour of 20 years of storytelling!
Events:
Mar 20, 2025 — [TORONTO, ON] Sleepless Studios is hosting a community workshop on “Stop Sucking at Social Media”. Join Remy Lethbridge for a fun, no-BS workshop to level up your content game.
April 13, 2025 — [VIRTUAL] Don’t miss the Hot and Bothered virtual live show! Join Vanessa, Hannah and Ariana as they cover the coming of age rom com, 13 Going On 30 and ask “what does this movie believe about love?”. Get your tickets now!
May 4, 2025 — [TORONTO, ON] The Soundwave Summit is back with more panels and networking for indie podcasters, and plus a live podcast of my show, Canardian, featuring Hannah Sung (Media Girlfriends)! Early bird tickets on sale now—use code **EARLYSOUNDWAVE** for 15% off. See you there!
Good Reads:
Pacific Content | Who Should Host Your Branded Podcast?
Transistor | How does Gen Z listen to podcasts?
Just Joe (spending some quality time with his #1)…
Thanks for supporting Pod the North, I’ll be back in your inbox in two weeks!
Kattie
BSKY: @podthenorth.bsky.social | IN: @podthenorth
Great newsletter as always!
Nielsen really nailed why it's so challenging to make a living creating podcasts in Canada. It's really depressing how the job market for podcasters collapsed all at once. There's so much talent here that's being underutilized. And even CBC Podcasts seems to be moving away from a focus on Canadian stories.
Having just recently co-founded a (very small) podcasting company, we wrote off advertising from the start. It's highly unlikely we're ever going to hit the scale required to make ads an important revenue stream.
The lack of any tax credits or arts grants is also such a frustration. For us, that leaves us with subscriptions and, maybe in the future, co-productions as revenue sources. Which isn't the worst situation to be in, but definitely makes things an uphill climb.
Thanks for sharing! Adding "Made in Canada" now...