The complex nature of kids podcasts, and why it's all worth it.
Vol. 54 - Sleep Tight Media talks monetizing kids podcasts. The launch of Sequel Media, and how to follow along with PodSummit this week!
Hihi!! Happy Pod the North Tuesday!
In this issue:
PodSummit YYC 2024 is this week!
Sleep Tight Media is reading bedtime stories over and over and over again — so you don’t have to!
Canadian Indie: Soft for Us
True North Podcast Feature: Our Native Land
Former Pacific Content staffers announce the launch of Sequel Media!
BTW:
UPDATE: There are currently 32 long-term drinking water advisories in effect in 30 First Nations communities across Canada. The most recent advisory lifted was in June 2024. The most recent advisory added was in September 2024, in the Sweetgrass First Nation. Yes, water access in Canada is seemingly only getting worse.
A big week ahead for podcasting in Calgary!
As you’re likely more than well aware at this point, PodSummit is BACK and it’s hitting YYC this week on September 20th-21st with Pod the North as a media partner!
The PodSummit team has been working their absolute butts off lining up some incredible programming, including a live show from Personal Best, and talks from Chris Van Vliet (Insight), Jeremie Saunders (Sickboy), CBC Podcasts, Acast and plenty more. And guess what, I'll be a part of that programming too!
In my panel with the wonderful Meg Wilcox and Bob Kane, we'll doing check up on the Future of Canadian Podcasting. The Canadian podcasting industry is in the midst of a significant period of innovation, experimentation, and best of all... global recognition! So how have we gotten here and where is Canadian podcasting headed? We’ll be looking at the opportunities and roadblocks for Canadian podcasting, and what it’ll take to get the industry to a sustainable, equitable, and globally recognized place.
And I’ll be joining Emma Krebs on stage for her panel on building a career in podcasting, along with Liz Hames and my wildly talented pal, Jess Schmidt! We’ll all be sharing our insights into the myriad roles, opportunities, and projects within the podcasting world, offering guidance on how you can get involved and start building a viable career.
If you can’t make it out to Calgary this week but have a little FOMO, don’t worry! I’ll be capturing the whole event LIVE on Pod the North’s social channels: Instagram and Twitter X. I’ll be sharing insights from programming, rapid-fire interviews, and so much more, so be sure to follow along!
SEE YOU SOON CALGARY!
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Thoughts from the ecosystem:
Sleep Tight Media is reading bedtime stories over and over and over again — so you don’t have to!
I get so excited about the prospect of kids podcasts. I grew up listening to Robert Munsch on audio, and The Vinyl Cafe on long car rides. And my Dad? An absolute expert bedtime story reader. So when I met Clark and Sheryl MacLeod, the Prince Edward Island-based husband and wife team behind the kids bedtime story podcast, Sleep Tight Stories, I had SO many questions for them.
Especially when they told me that the show was getting over a million downloads a month, and yet they were still struggling to make the show both of their full time jobs.
Clark and Sheryl call themselves a “surrogate grandmother and grandfather for families” (though they haven’t hit that age yet), and that role has become Clark’s 9 to 5. He’s the Director of Sleep Tight Media, and he writes each of the orginal stories that come out every week. Sheryl, a full-time educator, then comes in a proofreads, records and produces each episode, with the of them typically wrapping up episodes over their weekends.
Sleep Tight Stories, and its offshoots Sleep Tight Science and Sleep Tight Relax, are wildly popular amongst families across the english-speaking world, and still Clark and Sheryl are finding themselves hitting snags especially when it comes to monetization. I talked to Clark about the inspiration for the show, those monetization challenges, and what it’s like to have such an engaged community of podcast listeners who are kids.
This interview has been edited and condensed for brevity and clarity. Paid subscribers of Pod the North can listen to the whole conversation next week!
Kattie Laur: Lately I've been listening to Backstage at the Vinyl Cafe and I see similarities between Sleep Tight Stories and The Vinyl Cafe: short stories around the same characters written every single week. I'm curious about what your influences are!
Clark McLeod: Well, that's interesting because I often would describe Sleep Tight Stories and much of what we do as a performance!
But in terms of influence, our children grew up in Taiwan, their first language was Chinese. There was a Chinese language podcast we used to play for our kids. She had a certain sound, has a certain voice just like an old auntie. But there were no really early influences.
My wife's an educator and telling stories to young children is her life. But when I started to look for Chinese language and English language audiobooks, I couldn't find anything that, for instance, would have girls in leading roles. It was always ‘the prince came to rescue the princess’. I became interested in developing things that showed our more modern values with girls in leading roles and boys doing bookish things.
KL: How long does it normally take for you to turn over an episode? Because you're putting out new stories every week.
CM: We do too much. Some writers can write 10,000 words with little or no difficulty a week, but I was writing upwards of 12,000 words a week because each story's about 2,000 to 2,300 words.
KL: And they're about 15 minute long episodes usually.
CM: Right. But some days you don't feel like doing something. You sit in front of the screen and go ‘what am I doing here?’ Some days some things just come out and I can write something in a couple hours. Some stories are really a labor. My wife and I always talk about producing something with a happy heart.
KL: I wanted to ask you about the reception of the show. What are parents and kids telling you about what they think of it?
CM: Kids are really awesome, and to create something like this is, it's joyful. Creating stories for children is amazing and podcasting is just about the best medium because you have this direct line with children. We get direct feedback from children, and the feedback is all largely positive. Sometimes it's too positive!
KL: Is that through emails? Because I was looking at the show on Apple Podcasts. Clearly a ton of kids are leaving reviews! It's so funny. I've never seen anything like that.
CM: Yeah, it keeps you going on a rainy day.
Most of the comments are largely positive, and I said ‘there must be some negativity around the podcast somewhere’. So I made a conscious effort to find some, and I did. But mostly from parents.
Kids are very honest and sometimes we'll get just a poop emoji - which means ‘bad’ obviously - or the simple word ‘bad’. I'll ask, ‘what did you think of this episode?’ Spotify is great for that, they have a comment section. But we launched our Sleep Tight Premium audio on Apple and there's been some pretty negative pushback on that because now the kids see that there's one or two extra stories every week and they can't listen to them. That makes them angry because their parents won't pay for it.
KL: Where do you get your story inspiration from? Im so curious if you take any from the comments that kids are requesting from you.
CM: Most of it is lived experience. In the past I used to write a lot about children who are different. And I hear stories from my wife in the classroom, and that is inspiration.
One of our most popular stories is about a little bear and her father: The Bernice series. That is just me imagining a conversation with my daughter, and it's very, very simple. I can write these stories very quickly, because it's just a conversation. I don't know why this resonates so well with kids - a young girl sharing her day with her father - but it's crazy. It's so important to these children.
KL: What other types of stories do you find get a lot of interest? Because one interesting thing that I've learned about kids podcasting is that, unlike pretty much any other genre, a lot of kids podcasts have over 100% completion rates because kids are listening to the same episode over and over again.
You must have some pretty interesting analytics around your show!
CM: Yeah, I think the stories where they can identify with the character get the most interest.
We had a long series called ‘The Magical Book of Dreams’. It's the hardest thing I've ever written in my life. And it's just a story about a girl looking to save her father who disappeared in this imaginary world. Kids really would follow that.
Other stories, silly stories like about a cat who will only eat pizza. The kids will listen to the story that they identify with ten times, or more.
We get comments from parents saying, ‘can you please write a different story? Because I'm tired of hearing this one every single night of the week.’
The kids love to hear their name on a show. It used to be just for fun, and then it became a way to encourage people to subscribe to our premium feed, and then people would just sign up to premium, get the shout out and then they'd unsubscribe immediately. So we started charging, but it didn't slow down and we don't know what to do with this.
I know one podcast charges $300 US for a shout out and I think that's kind of ridiculous. It takes away the fun of the whole thing. But it's a real thing. It's like a phenomenon.
KL: Clearly the reception of your podcast is pretty amazing. You have a ton of kids who are really, really invested in it.
You've told me that your download numbers are incredibly high on a monthly rate. And despite all of this, it's been tricky for you to monetize the show.
There's a couple of different ways that we can think about that. I know sponsorship in the kids programming world is a tricky game to play. But also you're working on a show that kids are meant to fall asleep to — where do you put an ad if nobody's going to hear it?
So I want to talk about crowdfunding. You mentioned the crowdfunding side on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and I noticed you also have a Supercast at $7 a month. I'm so curious if there's a lot of people opting into this, because the more we keep talking, the more I keep imagining how parents no longer have to read the same story to their kid every night. It's probably worth seven dollars a month to get somebody else to read that story, right?
CM: I'm gonna use that line: it's worth seven dollars a month to have someone else read your child a story!
By and large, the majority of our revenue is about 60 percent from advertising. But, we have Patreon, we have Supercast, and we have eight shows on Apple Podcasts so far and we're launching a new podcast any day now. This now adds up to a living. We don't need to accept advertising, and it's not a very good living, but we can survive.
KL: It can pay you full time.
CM: Yeah, I'm really, really grateful. This is a tremendous opportunity. It's taken a few years, though, surprisingly Apple Podcasts, we launched that and ‘boom’, it just exploded.
KL: That makes sense to me because it's already an app people are using! So with the success of subscriptions, are you even thinking about sponsorships at all. Do you think it works for kids podcasting?
CM: I think it can work. When we got started, I was really naive and I was wondering if we had millions of downloads every month, why aren't we making a living?
And we did everything; I reached out to all the marketplaces and they just mostly hum and hawd, and I did whatever they asked. Don't get me wrong, we made a living. But in 2023, we were booked for 12 months out of the year for a lot of impressions. It kept us afloat.
The problem is that you're dealing with a sales manager who has to convince a brand or an agency to advertise your show. Their impression is that it's kids listening and because of COPPA rules, you cannot advertise to kids directly. They don't realize that there's a lot of co-listening going on. They just see a difficult sales funnel.
Having said that, we've had success. But if you treat this like a business, every time we got an ad contract, it's like winning the lottery. Except the winnings are really, really low.
KL: One final thing I want to talk to you about is YouTube, because I noticed that you've been posting your episodes on YouTube for about five years.
We know a ton of kids live on YouTube. I'm curious about how you're thinking about that platform and your podcast.
CM: Sort of ‘wait and see’. We are audio first. We believe very strongly and keep kids using their ears, not their eyes. Kids spend too much time looking at screens already, which is part of the reason why we don't do a lot of stuff on social media.
But, we were just doing it automatically for a long time through Headliner and then one day we had millions and millions of impressions. I didn't know what was going on, and it's calmed down quite a bit. But we have a philosophy to be everywhere.
If you really want to have an audience, it could take a long, long time to get there. From my perspective, it's extremely expensive to grow your audience. You either pay or you spend the time. I don't think anybody starts a kids podcast in order to make a living. I think you do it because you love creating things for children because it is a very joyful thing.
Kids are amazing listeners, unlike some adults.
What Clark is loving:
More stories about kids podcasts:
The story of the 14-year-old winner of NPR's Student Podcast Challenge.
Podster secures book deal for 'The World’s Wackiest Bandits'
Check out this Canadian Indie: Soft for Us
Soft women in a hard world.
Soft for Us explores the friendship of three aspiring comics in Vancouver, Canada. In a world that can be tough and unforgiving, Amy, Danielle and Niki embrace their softness with laughter, curiosity, and let's be honest, some confusion. Each episode, they nominate someone as the ultimate softie, exploring what makes a person the epitome of softness. They'll also dive into absurd Reddit threads, put their taste buds to the test, and engage in friendship-altering debates. Dive into a world of joy, anxiety, and unbreakable lady love!
True North Podcast Feature: Our Native Land
Tchadas Leo explores all things Indigenous and First Nations!
Our Native Land features fun interviews and compelling discussions about Indigenous and First Nations cuisine, culture, heritage, and more from Vancouver Island and around the world. Recorded at CHEK Studios in Victoria, BC, Tchadas is joined by guests of all backgrounds and professions for educational, emotional, and engaging conversations. Tchadas Leo will also be at the upcoming PodSummit YYC!
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What’s going on in Canada’s podcast ecosystem:
New Releases:
Sep 3, 2024 — Africville Forever has returned for Season 2! The season kicks off speaking to the next generation of Africvillians who are making waves and fighting their own battles in the name of advancement.
Sep 4, 2024 — Randy! is a wonderful, brand new show on the Sonar Network. It’s an 11-episode, real life audio-memoir of a Maryland-based 30-something, discovered amongst a pile of as CDs at a garage sale by author, Mike Sacks. Now, Mike is broadcasting those CD’s for the first time, as is.
Sep 6, 2024 — The Canadian Country Music Association® has launched a new podcast series, Uncharted Country. Join Morgan “MJ” James as she chats with Grammy nominees The War and Treaty, Steven Lee Olsen, and CCMA Award winner SACHA. Their conversations highlight the diverse history and often-overlooked influences behind one of music’s biggest genres; how country music has been shaped, connecting its past, present, and future.
Sep 18, 2024 — Harbinger Media Network is announcing their 19th wave of expansion on September 18th! This wave is sent to include a “scrappy, bilingual. Montreal indie journalism organization", a 'Library Socialism' series, and a french language podcast channel. Watch for the announcement tomorrow!
You should know…
Former Pacific Content staffers, Andy Sheppard and Tori Allen, have announced the launch of Sequel Media, a brand new podcast production company! Friends and long-time colleagues Aparita Bhandari, Brittany Duggan, Robyn Edgar, Pippa Johnstone, and Pedro Mendes have all joined the team, with the company up and running since July 2024. Congratulations to the whole team, can’t wait to see what this talented group puts out next!
Meanwhile…
Rogers Sports & Media has announced an exclusive advertisement sales agreement with Wondery. In a press release, they went on to explain that Rogers will be representing all ad sales across Canada for Wondery’s podcast portfolio, “unlocking host-reads for listeners nation-wide on shows like Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard, Business Wars, New Heights with Jason and Travis Kelce”, etc. This investment in the sales side of podcasting is a pretty striking contrast following the dismantling of beloved branded podcast studio, Pacific Content. IMO, a classic Rogers move.
The team at Bumper recently spotted Spotify’s new trackable sharing links. In a recently blog podcast, Dan Misener observed that podcasters can create show-level or episode-level links, and track people who clicked, people who showed interest, and people who streamed your podcast on Spotify. Dan also pointed out that Apple announced very similar capabilities for traffic sent to Apple Podcasts from Linkfire links.
Quill has collaborated with Tom Webster, Bryan Barletta and Sounds Profitable for their latest branded podcast report. Sourced directly from brands, this report provides the latest audio insights, including how 64% of brands are planning to sustain or increase their podcast investment in 2024. Check out the report for yourself!
Fieldwork is underway on the 8th year of the Canadian Podcast Listener 2024 report. To say I’m excited would be an understatement! A topline update on the penetration of podcast listening will be available in mid-September with the final report and sponsor presentations by the end of the year.
BlackLantic’s Hillary LeBlanc was recently featured on Spotlight Sunday! In her interview she discusses her mission to amplify Black/Visible Minority voices on the East Coast of Canada. Give it a read!
Vancouver-based lifestyle magazine, The Georgia Straight, has selected it’s winners for Best Podcast in the latest Best of Vancouver awards! Congrations go out to #3 Soft for Us, #2 Stop Podcasting Yourself, and in first place, Poor Lil Thing.
Happy First Anniversary to the North Bay Echo Community Podcast Network! This isn’t the only exciting milestone for NBWC. Next month they’ll be hitting their 100th episode of the To North Bay With Love podcast.
JAR Audio’s Liz Hames has called for a “quiet place to play”. In recent LinkedIn post, she talked about how there is so much pressure on growth in the podcast industry, and that‘ if our attention is trained on this massive end growth goal, we've lost the plot’. Keep podcasting joyful!
—> In other JAR Audio news, they recently welcomed new producer, Ebyan Abdigir, to their team!
Events:
Sep 17-18, 2024 — [Toronto] Don’t miss the incredible podcast programming at the upcoming T.O. Webfest! The festival includes a two day conference offering panels, networking, screenings, and an Awards Gala!
Sep 18, 2024 — [Kitchener-Waterloo] Check out the grand opening of Tiny Horse Film Studios, where you can tour the new space and explore their new podcast sets.
Sep 18, 2024 — [Virtual] Co-founder of Pacific Content, Steve Pratt, is kicking off Lower Streets’ first Office Hours Event, meant to answer your biggest questions about branded podcasts. Steve is set to share his insights on strategies for earning attention.
Oct 3-5, 2024 — [Montreal] Resurrection Live: A Big Gay Podcast Cabaret! Fresh off the release of their second season, Canada’s chart-topping LGBTQ+ podcast, Resurrection, is going live in Montreal! Part-podcast, part-cabaret, and fully gay, Resurrection Live tells the story of early AIDS activist Michael Callen through live musical performances.
For your pod:
A small tweak of podcast artwork more than doubled its downloads.
- : End of Year Marketing Essentials
Wavve Insights: How to Handle Controversial Topics In Your Podcast
- : Repurpose your old stuff in new forms
Just Joe (back in the comfort of civilization)…
Thanks for supporting Pod the North, I’ll be back in your inbox in two weeks!
Kattie
@Podkatt (Twitter, Spotify, and Goodpods) | @PodtheNorth (Bluesky and Instagram)
