The state of Indigenous podcasts in Canada
Vol. 5 - Cassidy Villebrun-Buracas, piles of money, and the Indian burial ground trope.
Hihi!! Happy Pod the North Tuesday. I hope you were all wonderfully spooked yesterday!
In this issue:
Cassidy Villebrun-Buracas says there aren't a lot of spaces for Indigenous storytellers to get paid to make podcasts.
A big pile of money: An Indie Audio Maker’s Manifesto.
Canadian Indie: Adoptees On
True North Podcast Feature: The Red Nation Podcast
FYI: There are currently 31 long-term drinking water advisories in effect in 27 First Nations communities across Canada!
My goal with this newsletter has always been to connect Canada’s podcasting ecosystem. I want the country’s network producers, freelancers, and independant podcasters all on the same page. To be a united front in getting Canadian podcasts on the global stage equitably.
But just like practically every facet of our country’s existance, there is a massive gap when it comes to Indigenous representation. This is, frankly, fucked up considering that most of us are making podcasts, building careers, and finding success in this space on stolen land. That’s why it’s important to me that I feature an Indigenous podcast in every issue of this newletter.
In my hunt for Indigenous podcasts though, I have yet to find an actual Indigenous podcasting “community” in Canada - at least not at this point in time.
While there is some incredible Indigenous podcast content coming out of CBC like Buffy, Kuper Island and Missing and Murdered, indie content feels hard to come by.
When I have come across indie Indigenous podcasts, I discovered that a lot of them have been on hiatus over the last couple of years, or have ended all together.
While I have a spreadsheet going of ongoing Indigenous podcasts made in Canada that I plan to listen to and feature here, it’s a pretty short list that’s disheartening to look at. Just 14 always-on Indigenous podcasts.
We can’t possibly have a Canadian podcasting ecosystem without significant Indigenous representation. But where is the Indigenous podcasting community?
Thoughts from the ecosystem:
Cassidy Villebrun-Buracas says there aren't a lot of spaces for Indigenous storytellers to get paid to make podcasts.
I’m really excited to share an important and totally fascinating conversation that I had with Cassidy Villebrun-Buracas, a Dehcho Dene and Cree-Metis Podcaster and Radio Producer.
Cassidy is the creator and host of the award-winning podcast, Dene Talk, a brilliant show that features stories of Indigenous rejuvenation. The podcast was created in part because it was funded by CFUV 101.9 FM, University of Victoria’s campus radio.
But like many other independant Indigenous podcasts in Canada, Dene Talk has been on hiatus since February 2021 ever since its first season wrapped up.
While CFUV gave Cassidy the foundation to build the show, now he’s sort of in limbo, “sitting on some interviews” that he’s excited to release but sorting out how the podcast can be funded and produced for the long-run while he, y’know, funds his regular-everyday-human expenses too.
Cassidy goes on to explain in our conversation that more conciencious funding opportunities for campus radio stations and grants could play a big role in supporting Indigenous podcasts across North America.
I caught up with Cassidy to get his insight on what’s going on with Indigenous podcasts and what needs to happen for them to thrive.
This interview has been edited and condensed for brevity.
What I've noticed in a lot of Indigenous podcasts is that a lot of them are very trauma-centered, and for good reason. But I haven’t found many podcats made by Indigenous peoples that are just niche interest podcasts, like sports, movie, etc. What is your insight on this?
I think that it’s difficult being Indigenous in Canada because every Indigenous person in Canada has been marked in some form or another by colonialism.
I love Metis in Space because they talk about a science fiction and use humor to dissect it and discuss the tropes. That's another thing that I love about Indigenous podcasting is the use of humor as a defense mechanism, but also as a socializing mechanism. It's a part of our being.
I think the work of people like Connie Walker doing Missing & Murdered and Stolen, are really amazing, beautiful stories that have to be told. I think Connie Walker is so intelligent using the genre of true crime as a way to discuss indigeneity because so many people are connected to true crime.
But I'd really love more unbridled expression of indigeneity without having to always discuss the colonial legacies.
I was a bit nervous of asking that question too because I was thinking, “maybe there just isn't room for [Indigenous] niche-interest podcasts because of the reality of colonialism”.
It's not like you can really just skip past all of these stories and all this context. There must be a balance there, right?
Yeah. I really appreciate the work of Falen Johnson and Leah-Simone Bowen doing Secret Life of Canada because they do unpack these horrific experiences of Canada, whether it's forced migration or concentration camps. They use such witty humor to cut through the history in a way that makes you not only enjoy the experience, but it is just so informative and honestly, a safe way to explore these dark parts of our history.
I've noticed over the last couple of years a lot of Indigenous podcasts have gone on hiatus. Have you noticed this? What are your insights on the state of Indigenous podcasts right now?
I think it's hard [for Indigenous podcasters] because outside of the CBC, there aren't a lot of spaces for Indigenous storytellers to get paid to make podcasts.
A lot of people are doing it off the side of their desk while they do a full-time job. So much work comes into making a podcast, from finding guests and booking guests to recording to editing, scripting and all that stuff, and it's a lot of work that goes unpaid.
It's hard to find funding to do podcasts unless you're connected with grants. But then grants are also incredibly difficult to navigate and hard to access unless you have the know-how or someone to help you navigate that space.
There are a lot of great Indigenous podcasts but for a podcast to really thrive and survive you need to have that core funding, whether it's through ads or whether it's through grants or a larger network that has the money.
There's also a lot of money earmarked for Indigenous people in media but what you see happening is non-Indigenous people accessing that money and bringing on an Indigenous token person to make it an Indigenous project.
Tell me more about the barriers for Indigenous podcasters getting grant funding.
The first one's a soft barrier, which is how to write a grant.
Indigenous people on average don't go to university at the same levels of non-Indigenous people. We don't have the same levels of education. So accessing grants, you have to go through a lengthy application process and the wording of that application process is so crucial to whether or not you get that grant. Learning the language of grant writing is really difficult.
The second barrier is there's a lot of deadlines and timelines that are really specific to grant funding. They are very written in stone and if you don't meet those firm deadlines, then you just get axed from accessing any funding in the future.
So if you don't have the privilege of flexible time, then how can you possibly get a grant submitted?
Exactly. And it's results based, right?
It's, “we're gonna give you this money to create this specific thing that's going to be delivered at this specific time”. But that's not always what the creative process looks like for everyone.
The other thing that exists is a lot of this funding is earmarked for specific projects. For instance in BC with the First People's Cultural Council, there's specific funding for language but it has to be in BC.
I'm a Dene guy [based in Victoria, BC]. I'm from the Northwest Territories. I can't use this funding to go to my home reserve and learn my language because it has to be in BC.
Money is just so tied up with these soft barriers and then these hard barriers that it makes it completely inaccessible for anyone to really access this money in a meaningful way.
The other thing that is disconnected is there are Indigenous people who get to that level of fame or that level where they've “made it''. Then they get tapped for everything and then they become overworked and overburdened to be the representative. Like the Connie Walkers, the Falen Johnsons. Everyone wants a piece of them because they're like gold in the industry.
It's like everyone wants that high level, high production [Indigenous] person, but no one wants to help them get to that level.
What do you think has to happen in the ecosystem to foster a healthy Indigenous podcasting industry?
So this is my dream: It's a big pile of money essentially, as a way to hire Indigenous people into radio and podcasting, and it's coupled with an organization that provides support, mentorship opportunities, and workshop opportunities to foster young Indigenous people or even new Indigenous people into media, podcasting, radio, and journalism. It pays Indigenous people to get their first job in media, radio, journalism, et cetera.
There's so much funding out there and it's just consolidating that funding and reducing the barriers for Indigenous people to have access to it, to get paid to learn on the job and to get two to five years experience in the industry so that they can move on to APTN, CBC, or other spaces that are hiring.
Campus radios are one of the best avenues to get people into the door because campus radios are specifically set up to serve underrepresented communities. That’s the mandate of the National Community Campus Radio Association.
I think that would help people get to that next level, but then also access funding if they want to do a podcast.
Here’s what Cassidy is listening to these days:
Revolutions: A weekly podcast series examining great political revolutions.
Sound School Podcast: The Backstory to Great Audio Storytelling.
The 11th: Radio stories - something engaging and true will be waiting for you.
AfriWetu: Celebrating Africa's History, People, Culture & Folklore.
Blank Check: About the auteurs whose early successes afforded them the rare ‘blank check’ from Hollywood to produce passion projects.
A big pile of money: An Indie Audio Maker’s Manifesto
If you haven’t read it already, you’ve got to spend some time reading “An Indie Audio Maker’s Manifesto” from Wade Roush and the Boston audio collective Hub & Spoke. It gets at the heart of what seems to be eating away at the Indigenous podcasting community across the continent.
“A consolidation is underway. More and more resources are being concentrated at a smaller and smaller handful of stations and networks. As competition for those resources grows, fewer new shows are being commissioned.”
As Roush explains, it’s getting harder and harder for independant audio makers to reap any sort of reward from their labour and let me tell you, I resonated so hard.
Erin and I make Alpaca My Bags, at this point, simply for the love of the craft and the content we’re putting out into the universe. Each episode takes us over 12 hours to produce and despite the fact that we’ve landed a midroll sponsor, we’re barely getting paid for our time and skills.
Look at CANADALAND, a much more popular but still independant Canadian podcast network. Each of their episodes tends to land 2 prerolls and 2 midrolls, and still the network launches a crowdfunding campaign every year and relies on avenues like Patreon in order to support its team of producers and hosts.
Much like the world as we know it, podcasting has a vanishing middle class. Most podcasters don’t actually have the freedom to drop everything and focus on growing their own show. They’re hobbiests, they’re freelancers, they’re Indigenous.
How and when will we see the “big pile of money” dispersed equitably?
Or is the podcasting landcape destined to become a reflection of our modern Western world where the rich only seem to get richer and the disadvantaged continue to face barrier after barrier?
Ya, I wish I had any semblance of an answer. Read the piece and let me know your thoughts.
Check out this Canadian Indie: Adoptees On
Adult adoptees share stories of search, reunion, and secondary rejection.
Edmonton’s Adoptee Advocate, Haley Radke, hosts this wonderful, emotional, and completely enlightening podcast about the adoption experience, and her episode with Kara Bos is one to remember.
Kara is one of the first adoptees to ever successfully win a paternity lawsuit in South Korea. Kara’s biological father was compelled by the courts to take a DNA test confirming his genetic connection to Kara which in turn allowed her to be added to the family registry as his daughter.
True North Podcast Feature: The Red Nation Podcast
Discussions on Indigenous history, politics, and culture from a left perspective.
In honour of spooky season I was totally wrapped up in finding ghosty podcasts and horror movie reviews, so I was really excited to find this episode from The Red Nation podcast about horror tropes from an Indigenous perspective.
In the episode, hosts Nick Estes and Jen Marley are joined by Dr. Kali Simmons to look at the cultural links between settler colonialism and horror fiction and film. They have a really fascinating chat about the “Indian burrial ground” trope, the “Final Girl” trope, the “Frontier Narrative”, and discuss some of their favourite Indigneous horror movies and of course, the dishonourable mentions.
For your pod:
Resource: Helping Listeners Find Your Podcast
This Podcast Bestie newsletter from Courtney Kocak is a great resource to bookmark! She outlines her key learnings from her Podcast Movement presentation with James Carbary, Ray Chao, and James Cridland about podcast discovery. Lots of great tips in there about about what’s press-worthy, leveraging networks, and critical marketing tactics that are being ignored.
Resource: How to pitch your podcast to year-end "best of" lists from Podcast Marketing Magic.
Submit your podcast for promotion on Apple Podcasts (free):
Featured content is chosen by Apple’s editors and is solely at the discretion of Apple. Submit the form with at least two weeks of lead time!
What’s going on in Canada’s podcast ecosystem:
THE 5th ANNUAL CANADIAN PODCASTING AWARDS! The awards will be LIVE on Youtube this Friday November 4th at 8pm ET. Don’t miss it and best of luck to all the nominees!
Dust off your Walkman! Canadian Politics Is Boring has released a limited edition episode on just 50 cassette tapes. Personally, I would spend good money for an audio drama on vinyl. Read more about it on Pod News!
On Saturday December 3rd, Podfest is hosting a (free) meet-up at Jimmy’s Coffee! If you’ll be in the area, pop by! Register here. (Thank you Jodee for sending this my way!)
Tink* Media has released a podcast version of their podcast recommendation hotline and it is super cute! Hosted by the lovely (and Canadian) Devin Andrade, you can listen to the quirky voice notes that people have left and catch some great podcast recommendations. Devin has also been a wonderful supporter of this newsletter and we finally caught up in person a few weeks ago in Toronto over a couple cocktails! Thank you Devin! Listen here.
Hey network folk, this is your sign to finally step out of your comfort zone and be an advocate in the boardroom for experimentation. Defector Media’s breakout podcast hit, Normal Gossip, has come out with some impressive numbers that show that the podcast has led to a 7% bump in Defector subscribers. The craziest part is that this show is such an unlikely pairing with the brand itself - actually maybe the sports industry is pretty gossipy. But it goes to show that sometimes the simplest idea is the one with the biggest impact. Read about it here.
It looks like TikTok is FINALLY going after podcasting! Promoting my podcast on TikTok has certainly been a commitment but everyday I’m discovering more and more podcast clips on my FYP. TikTok is ripe with opportunity for podcast discovery and it looks like they’re finally seeing it. Read more here. Also, TikTok if you’re reading this, I HAVE IDEAS!!!
Finally, a word from Joe…
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Kattie @podkatt
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OMG, thank you so much for the feature Kattie!