Rogers wants your indie podcast!
Vol. 12 - What happens when there are over 3 million podcasts?
Hihi!! Happy Pod the North Tuesday! It’s a big’un, so let’s just get into it.
In this issue:
What happens when there are over 3 million podcasts?
Jordan Heath-Rawlings says it's really, really, really, really hard to launch a new show from zero right now.
Black History/Futures Month Feature: Rights Back At You
Check out this Canadian Indie: EXTRA GRAVY
True North Podcast Feature: Storykeepers
Comedy Here Often expands and rebrands to 604 Podcast Network.
ICYMI: There are 32 long-term drinking water advisories in effect in 28 First Nations communities across Canada.
For years the podcasting space has been riddled with rhetoric that it is oversaturated.
Even before the pandemic hit - when the podcast boom became particularly evident - I was going to events like Hot Docs Podcast Festival in Toronto where podcakst networks were cautioning indie podcasters that there were already too many podcasts, and to be really intentional about pitching and developing new content.
Indie podcasters were essentially being told that there was no room for them.
Well now, according to a recent report from Listen Notes, there are officially at least 3,029,590 podcasts in the world. Launching a new podcast from scratch has never seemed more futile.
But podcasters aren’t going to stop just because of the daunting size of the space. We’re all too chatty, and creative, and ego-driven to do that (it’s okay, just admit it). I mean, the sheer amount of movies out there didn’t stop James Cameron from making Avatar 2, did it?
The saturation of podcasts has been a main point of conversation for podcasters across the industry; networks, studios, freelancers, and hobbiests alike. The challenges around launching a show, discovery, and audience growth couldn’t seem more dire than they are today.
So with over 3 million podcasts in the world, how do we move forward?
In a recent report, Bloomberg’s Ashley Carman reported that podcasting is headed into the consolidated feed era. She unpacked this further with Sony Music’s senior vice president, Emily Rasekh, who said:
“What everyone is picking up on is why continue to have standalone feeds and start from zero? You can launch to an existing audience and have value sitting on that [older] feed.”
I mention this because this is something that CANADALAND’s Jesse Brown also concluded in my end-of-year newsletter saying:
“Hot new shows come and go, but most listening occurs on regular feeds. We'll continue to put out new series but we'll also air them on our main feeds.”
Finding ways to consolidate feeds and cross promote throughout a network seems to be top of mind as one way to overcome the saturation of podcasts. That means for indie podcasters in particular, being a part of a podcast network seems like a really good idea right now (more on that later!).
But should people just stop making new podcasts?
Well, according to Listen Notes, that has already started to happen. In their New Podcasts by Year chart below, you can see that the number of new podcasts birthed into the world last year was significantly smaller that the previous three years.
While I’m certain that these trends were created by the comings and goings of the pandemic, they insinuate to me that most podcasts that will be created from here on out will come with long term commitment and intention. For me, that has always been the foundation of a successful podcast anyway.
In reality, I see most of the complaints about standing out among 3 million podcasts from major industry players who are more concerned about putting out the next blockbuster podcast as fast as possible.
In 2023, blockbuster podcasting means trying to create content that will appeal to 424.2 million global listeners (Daniel Ruby), which honestly gives the same energy as my grade 8 graduation year book blurb, where I responded to a “Future Job” prompt with simply, “famous”.
Anyway, Lord knows I have opinions on the corporate approach to blockbuster podcasting.
Overall, it looks like the podcasting industry is going to see a signifcant reduction in new podcast feeds over the next year.
Spotify is cutting back on its original content, laying off a bunch of people, and “doubling down” on its current investments as reported by Jake from Hot Pod in the January 31st newsletter, who also went on to say “I’d bet Joe Rogan — whose contract supposedly runs through roughly the end of 2023 — is on that “double down” list, too”.
We’ve seen CBC Podcasts is doubling down on many of their current-running shows, like The Heart and now, Let’s Make a Rom Com. They’re also producing new shows, but they seem focused on somewhat-timeless, series-style podcasts (ie, Shermans, The Outlaw Ocean) instead of new, always-on shows.
Meanwhile, independent podcast networks seem to have tapped into the thriving indie space since day one. Harbinger Media Network, Sonar Network, and 604 Podcast Network (fomerly, Comedy Here Often) only continue to add existing indie shows to their rosters and build their noteriety.
From my view, it seems like the era of indie podcasts is finally here.
Big players in the podcasting space are looking to spend less money on evergreen production costs and marketing, and tap into engaged audiences. That could look like a mass migration of indie podcasts partnering with networks!
As Executive Producer, Jordan Heath-Rawlings, gets into more in this newsletter, that’s top of mind for Frequency Podcast Network.
Thoughts from the ecosystem:
Jordan Heath-Rawlings says it's really, really, really, really hard to launch a new show from zero right now.
Back in December I heard from Executive Producer, Jordan Heath-Rawlings, that Rogers’ Frequency Podcast Network was opening up the chance for existing indie shows to partner with the network. I knew I had to learn more!
So a few weeks ago Jordan and I talked about why Frequency is focused on existing shows over new pitches, why they’re focused on Canadian content, what a “partnership” means over an “acquisition”, and he even put me in the hot seat!
Watch your feeds for a new season of The Big Story coming in June, as they celebrate their five year anniversary with something new coming to the show! Jordan would not tell me what that is. :(
Here’s my conversation with Jordan:
This interview has been edited and condensed for brevity.
Kattie: Frequency is accepting pitches for existing indie shows now! Are you looking for anything specific?
Jordan: We're not looking for anything specific in terms of genre or [topics]. We've had a mandate since we started to find independent Canadian podcasts and partner with them to bring them to a wider audience to help grow our network. To also help the creators grow their shows and hopefully monetize their shows.
Can you tell me why you’re focusing on existing shows rather than evergreen pitches?
Mostly it's because we have our own internal resources and they are not unlimited, and we are using those resources to make our own shows.
When you're talking about starting a podcast from straight zero, that's a lot of work. It takes a lot of development. You need dedicated producers who can focus on that and spend their days doing it without being pulled in a million different directions.
Once you have a show that is up and running that's repeatable, regardless of the size of that audience, you haven't experienced a pod fade where you do two or three episodes and it becomes so much work that you just can't continue.
It's easier for us to do what we can do with our resources, which is provide you editorial consultation, sound design, a second pair of eyes on your script, somebody to work closely with you developing a story arc, all that kind of stuff.
The other reason, to be super frank with you, is it's really, really, really, really hard to launch a new show from zero right now. It is an order of magnitude harder to get enough eyeballs to a new show and build up an audience than it was when we started, simply because of how crowded the marketplace is, how much other platforms are now focusing either their own in-house podcasts – which obviously they're gonna prefer to promote – or their subscription offerings.
So with those two things in the way, there's just not as much space anymore on the Apple Podcast’s page or Spotify. And, the audience that you're pitching a new show to in an audience already have 50 podcasts in their libraries.
So that's not to say we will never launch a new show. It's just a much tougher sell than it used to be.
Can you tell me about the difference between “partnership” and “acquisition”?
There are two key points. The first is we don't pay you upfront. That's why it's not an acquisition. But there are better reasons to be a partner. It's because we're both then invested in the show's success.
Because we don't pay you upfront, we do not own your show. We do not take your feed. We don't own your IP. It is your show. Without getting too in the weeds, it's a licensing and distribution deal. You bring to the table your creativity – your show – and the stories that you want to tell. We help you tell those stories, but what we also do is we put your show on the network. We commit to promoting it on all our own platforms, and that includes Frequency Podcasts, and it also includes 50 radio stations, CityTV, Sportsnet, and a whole lot of websites — essentially a line into a large percentage of the Canadian population.
The speech that I give to potential partners is that we can't make your show a hit. Only the content of the show and how well it's made can make a show a hit. But we can give your show a chance to be heard by Canadians who care about podcasts. We can make sure they find it and sample it.
We also have a big media sales department that takes your podcast and goes out and looks for sponsorships or runs programmatic ads, and we split the money, and those contracts look a little bit different for everybody.
But at the end of the day, when we did this we wanted to get to a place where we could help launch indie podcasts and also help burnish our network and grow a network.
You mentioned not paying upfront. So what are the compensation opportunities that come with being a partner with Frequency, if any?
I can't get into exactly how each contract looks, and I'm not being coy about that because contracts are different depending on what you're bringing to the table and what we're bringing to the table.
They are in many cases a revshare contract. So any money that the podcast brings in, we detail it and we split it with you. There are opportunities for sponsorships in which more is required of you, so you actually get flat fees — here we're talking about endorsements or content integrations or opportunities to appear on other shows.
And then there's programmatic ad revenue that is again, split between us and you.
While we don't pay fees upfront to acquire podcasts, where there's a story we believe in that needs help getting told we invest in production budgets and ways to get that show made.
We’re paying to air your content based on the money it earns.
It's encouraging to hear you so focused on elevating indie podcasts. Do you have any initiatives towards Indigenous podcasts or looking through dead feeds to try and elevate those shows?
That's really interesting. We have an internal team commitment to finding diverse stories to tell and so we're always on the lookout for that stuff. I hadn't actually had the idea of going back to dead feeds and looking at what it might take to revive them.
I can see how it would be really easy to burn out if you were an Indigenous podcaster. So that's a really interesting idea that I honestly hadn't thought of until you mentioned it, so I'm gonna take that away!
I mean, I just created a whole Spotify playlist of Indigenous podcasts that you're welcome to browse through!
Okay, let me ask you a question! What have you learned about the Canadian podcast industry since you started this newsletter? What are your big takeaways?
Well, I started it because I was frustrated that [the industry] felt fractured between indies and networks. Through the newsletter I've been getting a better idea of how everybody works, where everybody's head is at.
What I've been trying to do with the newsletter is get everybody on the same page, unpack the frustrations that indies have, and see whether those are valid or if it’s a matter of people not having the information that they need. And I've learned that so many indie podcasters have the same frustrations that I did.
What are those frustrations?
Discovery problems are across the board for everybody.
But the big one is that many indies feel that they have the talent and the goods to actually create good content but a lot of them aren't being taken seriously.
There's been a lot of unanswered emails where people will reach out to networks and then never hear from anyone. The pitching process seems very gate kept and it wasn't super clear whose pitches were being taken seriously and if they were even allowed to be contacting network people.
In Canada it's super frustrating because indie podcasters are battling the American podcasting space and big networks.
Indies should never feel they’re not allowed to contact someone. Like I said on your [newsletter], hello @ frequencypodcastnetwork.com, that email goes to me. It goes to our showrunner, Steph Phillips. It goes to our manager of business development. We all see it.
I was actually curious about that! How many emails have you gotten to that email address since you opened it up?
We've definitely gotten a few pitches. Not as many as I would've thought! I also sense the frustration in the indie podcast landscape that you're talking about. I think a lot of people are fed up and have hit a wall.
That’s what I’m thinking too. I think it’s become very apparent to a lot of indie podcasters that their pitches won’t be taken seriously unless they’re from a production house or have a serious degree of accolades.
It's weird because the same staffers seem to be moving between networks in the professional space, yet the indie podcasts are still sort of sitting by the sidelines.
I think Canadian indie podcasts don't feel like they're being leveraged or supported. And I do think that's starting to shift. However networks can help people with the resources that they have is super appreciated.
I mean, obviously I'm not an indie podcaster. I hadn't encountered that feeling. So I'll think about that and make sure we're not doing that.
I also think it's just a really weird time in Canadian podcasting right now, whereas everyone's coming to grips with the trajectory is not going to be up and up and up forever. Launching new shows is getting harder and harder — and that's not just in Canada, that's everywhere.
I think because of the scale that podcasts in the US typically drive and how they monetize, it's just a lot tougher to achieve that scale in Canada with Canadian content.
If you really want to have a hit podcast in Canada, you either have to figure out how much you need to do that to make it pay for you and aim for that, or you have to try to make content that can appeal across the border.
Thank you Jordan!
What Jordan is loving listening to:
Black History/Futures Month Feature: Rights Back At You
Stories of resistance from folks fighting against anti-Black racism.
This five-part series that explores everything from community-led harm reduction in Vancouver; to the intersections of anti-Blackness and Islamophobia; and how the practice of carding/street-checks persist in Halifax (and nationally).
Check out this post from host, Daniella Barreto, on the Vocal Fry Studios blog about making the show!
Check out this Canadian Indie: EXTRA GRAVY
Tackling the tough questions about our time on this planet....well, what's left of it anyways.
Marlon, Alicia and Norm talk about everything that’s happened in pop culture during the week, and tackle the tough questions about our world.
True North Podcast Feature: Storykeepers
Discussion about books by First Nations, Métis, and Inuit authors.
What’s going on in Canada’s podcast ecosystem:
Vancouver-based podcast network, Comedy Here Often, has expanded and re-branded to 604 Podcast Network, having opened up their podcast genres to include True Crime, Music, and Sports outside of just Comedy. Here’s what Director, Azzaya Khan, told me about the expansion and what’s top of mind for the network:
This quote has been edited and condensed for brevity.
[The name] “604 Podcast Network”; to have an area code that's Vancouver specific, you might think you're shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to marketing. But marketing can be executed in any foreign plan if you put your mind to it.
The goal is to continue to produce entertainment and autonomy specifically within the podcast genre for Vancouver and onward. For us, that's the brand we want to continue to carry going forward. What you can expect to see from 604 Podcast Network is striving to grow in the market that we reside on, as well as striving to spread its awareness within the markets that we contribute to.
Our goal is the best possible outcomes for podcasters in Canada and to provide them the resources they need. We want to give that opportunity to as many people as possible. Over the next year the industry can expect more Canadian focused content to hit the markets.
I came into this thinking more about monetization and market awareness, financially speaking, and focused less on marketing in the beginning phases when that's wrong. The biggest lesson I learned prior to this rebrand, is putting in a lot more research when it comes to marketing your podcast before you even think of advertising. Because at the end of the day, it's growth that's gonna lead you to prosperity when it comes to the financials, not necessarily focusing on financials first.
In a press release, 604 Podcast Network also announced an exclusive partnership with Libsyn AdvertiseCast.
Harbinger Media Network has announced three new shows that have joined the network, The Alberta Worker, Redeye, and Berrygrounds.
Podcamp Toronto is Feb 24-26! My session is the Saturday at 3PM, and there are plenty of other great sessions to check out about sponsorship info, network pitching, and more. PLUS there’s a party! Get your ticket, and I’ll see you there!
Rights Back At You’s Daniella Barreto curated a list over on The EarBuds Podcast Collective featuring five podcast episodes on Canada Black History and Futures. Go check them out!
The Ambies have announced their nominees and, of course, there are some great Canadian shows in there including:
The Outlaw Ocean, Podcast of the Year
Deep Left Field, Best Sports Podcast
Work Check, Best Business Podcast
Tai Asks Why, Best Kids Podcast
It’s Political, Best Political or Opinion Podcast
The Outlaw Ocean, Best Reporting
If you’re a member of The Podcast Academy, voting is up to you! Let’s bring home come trophies, eh?
For your pod:
How much should you charge to advertise on your podcast? Libsyn Advertisecast as released their 2023 Industry Average Podcast Advertising Rates. Read more.
I’ll be joining
and a bunch of other podcast newsletter writers on Twitter Spaces today, Tuesday February 7th, at 12PM EST chatting about pitching your podcast news to newsletters! Join us here!Growing your podcast one week at a time: Tink Media has put out a helpful thread on twitter with weekly, simple tasks that are aimed at growing your audience. Read it and add them to your agenda!
There are 3 days left to enter your podcast for The 27th Annual Webby Awards! Find more info here. Heads up, entry fees are about $465+ USD.
Tribeca Film Festival is now accepting submissions to their Audio Storytelling category and entry fees are actually pretty reasonable! More info here.
How to get your guests to actually share your podcast. Hot tips here!
Finally, a word from Joe…
You may have noticed pledge buttons floating around this Substack now, so if you like my work, consider pledging your support! This newsletter is a labour of love, and curiosity, and nerdy passion. I’d be honoured to have your monitary support but like, no pressure!
If you have thoughts or questions about this newsletter, please share them with me! Leave a comment or reply to the newsletter email.
Thanks for supporting Pod the North, I’ll be back in your inbox in two weeks!
Kattie | @podkatt
(Find me on Twitter, Post, Spotify, and Goodpods!)
Very interesting interview. Thanks for that.
Fantastic as always Kattie!
Looking forward to hanging out on the podcast newsletter Twitter Space tonight!