From network, to indie (to somewhere in between)
Vol 11. - Laura Palmer talks going indie and true crime podcasting, plus Spotify podcast playlists, Ready to be Petty, and Cree Star Stories.
Hihi!! Happy Pod the North Tuesday! I don’t know about you, but here in Brantford we’ve had barely any snow this winter until this weekend, and it’s bound to melt by this afternoon. If you’ve been out skiing, snowboarding, or tobogganing, please send me pics so I can live vicariously through you.
In this issue:
Canadian indies have spoken!
Laura Palmer says there is freedom in independent podcasting.
Canadian Indie: Ready to Be Petty
True North Podcast Feature: Cree Star Stories
ICYMI: There are 33 long-term drinking water advisories in effect in 29 First Nations communities across Canada.
The other day I posted a tweet. Then I promptly binged White Lotus before heading straight to bed.
In the morning, I woke up to the kind of engagement that I thought I could only dream of…
THE CANADIAN INDIES HAD SPOKEN. I heard from over 100 different podcasts!
Then it occurred to me that, while it’s still really important for me to highlight podcasts in this newsletter, I’ve really created this Substack in order to connect the Canadian podcasting ecosystem and therefore my readership is mainly podcasters, not listeners.
But I couldn’t let all these podcasts just sit in the Twitter thread hoping that I'd one day get a chance to showcase them here - I had to find a way to do that where it mattered. I’m still on a mission to figure out how exactly to do that, so let me know if you have ideas!
Otherwise, I’ve had some thoughts about pitching myself to podcasting apps as a playlist curator (Apple, Spotify, if you’re reading this you can expect an email from me soon), but it was
who basically told me, "dude, just do it anyway!".So with all those recommendations that came in on Twitter and all the podcasts I’ve tracked on my trusty Pod the North spreadsheet, I’ve started to create playlists on Spotify - nine to start!
Check them out below, favourite them, and add your podcast to the list if I missed yours. Please keep it civil in there and don’t dump ALL your episodes in these lists - just pick your best one or two.
These are all open to add your podcast until this Sunday, January 29th! And stay tuned, there are more to come!
Canada, why are you the way that you are?
A playlist of podcasts that explain Canada, from history, politics and culture, to petty grievances about Canadian life.
It's fiction, we made it up. (eh)
Audio dramas and fiction podcasts made by Canadians. Hit play for immersive, hilarious, spooky and intriguing stories with top tier sound design.
An ongoing list of Indigenous podcasts.
Exactly what it sounds like! A variety of podcast genres from Indigenous creators in so-called North America.
Canada, the final frontier.
Canadian podcasts about all things sci-fi.
MAPL Pods
Podcasts from Canadians about audio, music, and sound.
Not Canadian history
Podcasts from Canadians who love history from around the world.
What Canadians are watching
Canadian podcasts about movies and television. Get a Canuck's point of view on your favourite movies, tv shows and/or the media-making industry as a whole.
Brunch at the Timmy's parking lot
Canadian Podcasts that feel like you're just hanging out with your friends sipping mimosas on a Sunday morning.
Upgrade your fries to a poutine
Canadian podcasts about food and food fanfare.
Edit: These collaborator links may not be working despite me testing them. If you find that they do not work for you and have an episode that you want to include, send it to me in a reply to this newletter or in link it in the comments and I’ll add it to the playlist! :)
Thoughts from the ecosystem:
Laura Palmer says there is freedom in independent podcasting.
It’s so great to be able to bring Laura Palmer, host and producer of Island Crime, onto the newsletter. I’m so fascinated by her work and her journey in podcasting after such an accomplished career as an award-winning radio producer.
For over 25 years, Laura worked in the CBC news room until a big life change gave her the chance to break into independant podcasting full time! She moved to Vancouver Island and started her own podcast, Island Crime, investigating local unsolved crimes. She created the entire first season on her own before joining the Frequency Podcast Network where she still makes the show mostly independently.
As an indie podcaster myself, I’ve often thought about finally getting our show locked in by a network and if that ever happened, what that would look like. So I talked to Laura about her experience and the dynamic of being indie yet supported by a network.
She also gave me a behind-the-scenes look at how she approaches making an investigative true crime podcast and all the nitty-gritty details like working with the police and lawyering up.
Keep your eye on the Island Crime feed because Laura will be releasing new episodes to earlier seasons, including an update to Where is Lisa? with a never before told perspective from someone who was with Lisa the night she vanished. You can also expect Season 5 coming this spring, Whiskey Creek; a story of a massacre in the woods in 2020.
From Network to Indie.
What was the little spark that got you into the indie podcasting space?
Laura: Well, the little spark was actually my husband. [He] ended up getting a job offer here on Vancouver Island and CBC does not have a bureau in the tiny town that I live in. I'd been at the CBC for a long time and it just felt like it was a good time to make that decision to go.
I wasn't ready to garden or do whatever people do when they retire, and I wasn't all that keen on going back to local news — I'd done that and I loved it but it really felt like a good time to just try something different.
I had done some podcasting before I'd left the CBC, I knew some of the processes and the work that would be involved. But I will say I seriously underestimated all the things that I would need to learn.
Like how to grow an audience for your podcast – the ultimate struggle?
Yes, because when the CBC releases a podcast, it's generally gonna go in the top 10 podcasts pretty quick because it's got all that big network push and has the reputation. Doing it on your own is very different.
So your indie podcast, Island Crime, is technically a Frequency Network podcast, so what's the dynamic there? Are you still doing it all on your own and you pitched them the show?
My first season, Where is Lisa?, I did everything on my own. After I did that first season, there was a lot about working on my own that I loved but there were certain things that I thought I would be happy to hand over to somebody else.
I approached a whole bunch of different networks. I didn't really know anything about the Frequency Network, and as it turned out, they were really early on too when I signed with them and they were lovely.
What it basically looks like is, I still do all my own research, writing, gathering tape. I edit and mix. I do everything up until the point of distribution, at which point they have a showrunner there who listens, gives me a little bit of feedback on things they think should be shorter or what have you.
If there's a legal issue, they will run it past a lawyer. And then there's a technician there who will help me with my levels cause that's something I'm still not very good with.
I still basically do most of the work on my own but one of the reasons I wanted to be part of Frequency and one of the things I did miss about the CBC was the collegiality and the ability to just bounce things around and rely on people who have better and different skills.
I do feel like that is something you lose when you work on your own. If you don't have a circle of people or friends or a fellow podcaster – anybody who can listen and help you with things — it is hard. I probably made a lot of mistakes my first season that I wouldn't have made if I had a team around me.
There's so much that is great about working on your own but there is a real upside to having people around you as well.
Did creating indie content shift anything in your mind for you?
Well, when I was at the CBC I was producing for someone else: a different host and always with a broad audience in mind. Now, I'm hosting, and I am able to dig into the story and tell it from a pretty narrow perspective, and to return to stories over and over again.
When I was in daily news and current affairs, you're putting out three hours of live radio every day and a lot of the time it's just like you told the story, you move on, you do your next story.
Lisa Marie Young's case for example, which is where I started, I'm still very much involved in her story and in touch with her family regularly and was actually out searching for her just two weeks ago. I have that freedom.
Creating an investigative podcast independently.
I'm just curious about your production workflow in making an unsolved crime series. If you're creating a story that has no end, how do you wrap your mind around developing a story?
I'll use Michael [Dunahee]'s story as an example. I had in mind that I would tell the story in as much detail as I could around exactly what happened when Michael vanished. For so many people all [the story] was was a little boy in a playground, parents nearby, then he is gone. There was so little reporting outside of that, despite the fact that the story has had huge attention for 30 years.
I really wanted to tell a lot of details from everyone I could talk to who was there. Then I wanted to look at it over the years — who have been the suspects — and that felt like a natural place to go.
But then, because there have never been any charges or arrests, I was like, okay, how do I end this story? What made sense to me in that case was Michael's mom who has dedicated her life to help other families of missing kids, and trying to look at what's changed in the 30 years and to use kind of the passage of time really as a way of wrapping up Michael's story.
That's an example where I really struggled with it because Michael's family doesn't have that happy ending. I didn't wanna put a little bow on it. I wanted to have that note of hope for listeners, but I also didn't want to offend people who are still mourning.
I left it saying, “this is where Missing Michael ends for now”. I think that's not a bad thing to do – to just let people know, “this is the end of the series and I will keep updating it”.
How do you think about uncovering a suspect – you probably have to tread a pretty careful line about accusing people?
If I have someone who I think there is good evidence to believe they have involvement in a crime, but they've never been charged, then I will put out as much information as I can that I know 100% to be truthful and say only what I know. And that's really all I can do.
In Michael's case I had what I thought was enough information that I was uncomfortable not handing it over to the police. So I wrote a long affidavit with all of the information I had about this particular suspect and gave it to the police. What, if anything, they will do with that? I don't know. They won't tell me. But if I don't get anywhere with that, then I'm going to try and push it forward by putting out the information without naming the suspect.
And it's possible a lawyer will say maybe there's too much in here that could potentially identify this person and not wanna go forward with it. But I think in the end we're gonna be able to because I have really solid sources and I have personally gone and talked to these people as well.
With Lisa's story, There is someone, a person of interest and I have named him and I just am truthful about what I know; He was the last guy known to be with her the night she vanished. Here's all I know about his criminal record and here's all of his other victims, you know?
The lawyering process – how long does that normally take?
Rogers does have a lawyer, so I didn't have anything in my second season that they felt needed to be lawyered. But for Michael's season and for Finding Amber where there were some particular individuals being named in connection with crimes where there have been no charges, they did have a lawyer.
All that that looked like was the showrunner listened, they flagged ‘this 10 minutes is potentially problematic.’ I make a transcript, I send it to the lawyer, they have a look and come back to me with any suggestions.
As a true crime reporter podcast journalist, what is your relationship with the police like?
I would say I came up through journalism at a point where the police hold a press conference, you say what the police said, and that's it.
I don't approach things that way and I don't think most people do anymore. I appreciate they have a job and I try to get them to see that there is a value in the work that I'm doing.
I have generally had good relationships with the police that I've been working with so far. But when I say that it's limited, they really just won't give you much at all.
That first season [it took me] eight months to get an interview about a 20 year old case – I could not understand that. Particularly when you're saying, Look, the families want me to do this.
I say to them, I'm not a police agent. I don't work for you, but if I can be helpful, I will be. I don't see any value in holding back information if I think it's going to help an investigation.
But I have had a number of situations now where I'm asking a source, are you okay with me telling the police this? You can even stay anonymous. And for the most part, people do want that. They don't want themselves to get involved, but they're talking to me for a reason.
Does listening to other true crime shows help you navigate how you wanna approach your show?
Definitely. Whether it's about sound design or about how far they're willing to push things in terms of their storytelling, whether they're willing to go up against the police, and then some of the ways people approach ethical choices. I'm still learning for sure.
Podcasts that Laura is loving:
Check out this Canadian Indie: Ready to Be Petty
If you’re looking for a petty friend to talk sh*t with, look no further!
Join Torry on her podcasting journey as she dives into the ins and outs of pop culture, celebrity scandals, the juiciest reality tv, and much more. From the Kardashians to the Bachelor, and everything in between, Torry and her special guests take a deep dive into all the interesting news stories you care about, leaving out no juicy detail!
True North Podcast Feature: Cree Star Stories
Jesse Rae Archibald Barber shares his poems inspired in part by Cree Star Stories.
This is the beginning of a great series, especially as podcast fans and lovers of the arts support Jesse on his Cree-language poetry journey.
Listen to original poetry and stories in Cree and English — oral traditions about the origins of the constellations and spiritual connections to the land and the cosmos. Each episode Jesse shares his poetry and the context behind it in a short and sweet episode.
Find this show on Google Podcasts and Podchaser!
What’s going on in Canada’s podcast ecosystem:
Canada’s top 5 podcast categories of 2022 have been reported by The Canadian Podcast Listener: #1 Comedy, #2 Society & Culture, #3 News, #4 True Crime, #5 Health and Fitness. Download the full report here.
Hot Docs has launched the Podcast Development Lab, serving BIPOC creators who are based in Canada and have non-fiction podcast ideas in development. Find more info here.
Media Girlfriends is going to be at Podcast Movement Evolutions in Vegas in March presenting "But, Is It Journalism?" — a presentation on how podcasting is shaping the evolution of journalism. Grab your tickets!
PodNews has reported that Google Podcasts has been removed from Google Search and frankly, what the heck? Now, a Google search for a podcast no longer shows any play buttons or any links to Google Podcasts itself. Read more about this odd move here.
also broke this all down really well over on PodChat!The trailer for CBC Podcasts new show, Love, Janessa, is out now, all about stolen images of an adult entertainment star being used to con victims out of thousands of dollars while breaking hearts in the process. Check it out.
CANADALAND has a new Managing Editor of Podcasts!
For your pod:
Submit your podcast for promotion on Apple Podcasts (free):
Featured content is chosen by Apple’s editors and is solely at the discretion of Apple. Submit the form with at least two weeks of lead time!
I still talk to people that haven’t heard about TINK Media’s Podcast Swap Database (free), and it’s seriously one of the best community tools to enter the podcasting world. If your podcast isn’t on it, GET TO IT ALREADY.
Hot Tips for Podcasting in 2023:
shared 5 really helpful tips over on Podcast Bestie that you should check out - from using Descript and Canva to SEO. Read it!You have until this Friday January 27th to submit your podcast for the 2023 Digital Publishing Awards. Check out if you’re eligible to submit here. Or, try your hand at judging and volunteer to judge here.
The Webby Awards have extended their entry deadline to Friday February 10th! Heads up, entries are about $400 USD+!
Finally, a word from Joe…
If you have thoughts or questions about this newsletter, please share them with me! Leave a comment or reply to the newsletter email.
Thanks for supporting Pod the North, I’ll be back in your inbox in two weeks!
Kattie | @podkatt
(Find me on Twitter, Post, Spotify and GoodPods!)
New subscriber here. Love all the info provided in this article!
I tried adding episodes to some of the spotify lists, but I don't see the option. Thank you for including The Produce Stand in one of your lists.