Did Sarah Burke start the first women-focused podcast network in Canada?
Vol. 42 - Paid ads on Instagram, the TikTok ban, and Sarah Burke talks launching the Women in Media Podcast Network.
Hihi!! Happy Pod the North Tuesday! Were you at Podcast Movement last week? Tell me how it was: the good, the bad, and the meh!
In this issue:
I found a bunch of Canadian podcasts… via Instagram sponsored ads???
Sarah Burke may or may not have started the first women and gender diverse focused podcast network in Canada.
Canadian Indie: Big Lash Energy
True North Podcast: Native Circles
There are currently 28 long-term drinking water advisories in effect in 26 First Nations communities across Canada.
I found a bunch of Canadian podcasts… via Instagram sponsored ads???
I’ve been preaching for a long time now that successful podcast marketing can’t just be done by posting a video clip or graphic on social media, and hoping it goes viral.
I’m a big fan of Jeremy Enns over at the Podcast Marketing Academy for this reason, and now is the perfect time to shout him out over on the West coast. Jeremy is usually dishing out tons of tangible insights (including on this newsletter) on how to really convert someone into a listener and keep them around through what he calls “Legwork Marketing”.
All that to say that with the latest news about a potential TikTok ban in America, at first I hadn’t given much thought as to how it’d impact listenership of Canadian podcasts posting on the clock app.
But now, I might be rethinking that a little bit.
Even if it’s only sheer anecdotal evidence, lately I’ve discovered and subcribed to a bunch of new podcasts directly from social media posts — TikTok and Instagram specifically.
At first, I kept stumbling across Reddit-review style podcasts on TikTok — chat shows where hosts would read stories from the “Am I The Asshole” Subreddit, and share their opinions about them. I’ve been locked into TikTok wormholes of this content many a time (all video for context), but it hasn’t ever converted me to that audio-only listen.
But there was a breakthrough two months ago: a show called Financial Audit hosted by Caleb Hammer, in which the self-proclaimed “personal finance nerd” audits the ever living HECK out of young twenty-somethings and their horrific spending habits. The clips I saw on TikTok were so tastey that I needed more, and I almost instantly subscribed on my podcast app. Now I exclusively listen to the podcast over watching the video clips. I am converted.
Cut to these last few weeks, as I’ve found myself in the throws of managing the new Pod the North Instagram account and trying to track down and follow as many Canadian podcasts that I can.
Meta seems to have figured this out, and now my algorithm’s sponsored content has been a ton of accounts from Canadian podcasts.
So is it worth while to give the ol’ Zuckerberg some extra cash and test out targetted paid ads? Is social more effective than we thought?
Or is my digital footprint just so uniquely targeted to a specific niche that I’m the oddball seeing sponsored Canadian podcast content? Is it working for me because I’m the only person with the actual motivation to subscribe to the stuff I see online?
It might be just that.
Ariel Shapiro covered the potential American TikTok ban over on the Hot Pod newsletter on March 19th, and it seems like it’s not much of a worry for Canadian podcasters seeking American audiences. Generally, social media just isn’t converting.
Ariel explained that “even podcasters who have cracked the code on TikTok have found the relationship between on-app engagement and actual listening to be weak, at best. If [the TikTok Bill] passes the Senate (which is a big “if”), the social media landscape in this country would be transformed — the podcasting landscape less so.”
She backed this up in chatting with Cristina Lumague of Espooky Tales and Historias Unknown, who explained that through she’s been able to gain 215,000 followers on TikTok and get millions on views on her content, her podcast downloads “were more modest — about 2,000 a week,” though “a viral video can temporarily triple her listenership.”
Gary Arndt, the indie podcaster behind Everything Everywhere Daily, also told Ariel that when it comes to Instagram he’s gained 180,000 followers as a travel photographer, but his video podcast content “does even worse there” compared to TikTok.
What do you think?
Am I just an anomaly here, or are you starting to find more of your favourite new shows on social media too?
Have you paid for ads on Meta, and did you see more downloads on your podcast?
Are you done with social media all together?
TELL ME (please)!
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Thoughts from the ecosystem:
Sarah Burke may or may not have started the first women and gender diverse focused podcast network in Canada.
I love getting to talk to radio-people-turned-podcasters because they have such fascinating insights into how the two industries share similarities, how they differ, and how ultimately impact each other. Sarah Burke is one of those people, and now she’s got an even better view with the launch of her new podcast network.
Sarah worked for SiriusXM in 2017 doing a variety of cool stuff as a broadcaster and producer. At one point she got to interview Dave Grohl’s mom, and she also did a ton impressive of work in producing and hiring for their Indigenous programming at the time.
Throughout Sarah’s time in radio, the nature of the industry (especially as a women) started to turn her attention to the world of podcasting. She says she’s had many podcast fails, but finally found her voice when she started The Women in Media Podcast, a show “born out of my classic experience as a woman in the media.” Now, she told me, “I've been interviewing women in broadcasting, podcasting, sports, social media. I've really opened it up, I think the definition of media has really changed.”
Eventually, Sarah left radio in pursuit of a life in podcast production, with one of her most notable productions being The Jann Arden Podcast, of course hosted by the Canadian music legend herself. Sarah took over production when co-host Caitlin Green went on materinty leave, but when Caitlin came back the team decided to make Sarah a permanent fixture.
Along with teaching podcasting to students at Western University, producing podcasts for Jann Arden and so many more, most recently The Women in Media Podcast evolved into a full blown network, which Sarah officially announced last month.
I talked to Sarah about the launch of the Women in Media Podcast Network, how she’s observing the tranditional media landscape in Canada (hello, Bell layoffs), and what she’s seeing for the next generation of podcasters.
This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.
Paid subscribers can listen to the podcast version and full interview tomorrow!
Kattie Laur: Tell me about how The Women in Media Podcast Network came to be!
Sarah Burke: Well, there's no shortage of women who have been approaching me about where to start when it comes to podcasting. I'm sure you get that all the time too!
There seemed to be a need for it! And then of course, the case of monetization; when you have a bunch of women who all play in the same space, I think there's just such an opportunity there. There's tons of women's networks in the US, I don't know about any in Canada. Am I the first?
KL: I think you are the first!?
SB: I will say though; gender diverse. That matters a lot.
I think the gender diverse podcasters and women and female podcasters have something in common in that marginalized groups that have lots of important things to say, so it's about amplifying voices.
KL: There's a couple of different ways you can run a podcast network. I know some take podcasts on and have their name attached to them and do that cross promotion. Some actually produce podcasts in house. What's the approach from WIMPN?
SB: I would say it's part production house, part agency. I am sending media kits out there and working on that piece, but I do produce some of the podcasts – I would say half of them.
A great example, Jessica Moorhouse and the More Money Podcast; she's very successful on her own. She did not need me, but she wanted to be a part of what I was working on. She's already 400 episodes deep and she doesn't need me as a producer, so in that case it's about cross promotion.
And when there is an opportunity for monetization, the creators have a chance to opt in or opt out. They can bring their own sponsors in too, in which case I would never take a cut.
I don't want to own anyone's content. I want everyone to own their own content and therefore if you're bringing a sponsor in and I had nothing to do with it, why should I get a cut? That's the way I look at it.
KL: On your website, it says that you're “more than just an advocacy group, it's a movement” and that there is this emphasis on giving women the power to make decisions regarding their content.
SB: Honestly, my concern at this moment is in those big companies who have podcasting divisions, but they're not podcast companies.
Jann Arden leaving Bell Media; that whole process really opened my eyes to a couple things and, to be respectful of Bell Media, Jann made that decision when [co-host] Caitlin Green was let go from CHUM FM and therefore as a result she wasn't going to be able to be part of the podcast. That podcast was produced through Orbit Media, and like most places, it's a revenue share deal.
What I find wild is when you talk to a head company once every six months, and they are claiming to be part of this creative process, it's like, ‘tell me about how’. That's the piece that concerns me.
I don't know why anyone starting a network or who already is operating a network would want to own somebody else's artistic content. I've worked in music for a really long time so there are some obvious parallels here.
I had a great time at Podcast Movement last year. Of course it's fun, but it's eye opening to what's not happening in the Canadian scene. SiriusXM, iHeartRadio, the Spreaker crew; everyone had booths, recording spaces set up. If you're someone associated with one of those networks, or collectives, or companies and they are making sure that you're being seen and that your content is like top of the website, and they're promoting you, then absolutely it makes sense.
KL: The idea of having more ownership over your content, is that a uniquely Canadian issue? Is it a uniquely women’s issue? Because it does seem that women are more vulnerable to get stuck in shitty deals.
SB: Yeah, I would bet that more women than men have signed shitty deals. But I don't think it's specific to Canada. I think it might be more prominent here because we're just catching up. That's really it.
I also think that some of those [media] companies – let's be honest, they're grouping a podcast with television and radio sales, right? So it's the system itself [that] is broken. It's not that the company or the person you're dealing with at the company is the problem, there's tons of good people at all these places, but that ecosystem doesn't work.
KL: I'm curious now, what is your perspective on the radio industry versus the podcast industry in Canada right now?
There have been so many layoffs in traditional media, and it feels like radio is in a very precarious situation. But now we’ve seen CBC Podcasts launch their local news podcasts and now more and more radio is entering into podcast territory.
SB: So I don't know if you saw this quote, but this is what came out of my mouth [for] my press release: ‘the media landscape is in a perpetual state of turbulence right now, and I'm excited about empowering creators with newfound freedom from the organizations they were once tied to and the power to make decisions regarding their content.’
So that comes out of my experience as an afternoon radio drive host in London. You still have to run those content decisions by people, right? So what I love about podcasting is that you don't have to be drinking the company Kool Aid, and if you choose to [drink] the Women in Media Kool Aid, then hopefully your values are aligned.
Where radio is trying to cast a wide net, podcasters are trying to target niches. So I love that part of it.
I also think that when you say, “we have a podcast, we're the morning show” and it's literally just what you talked about on the air in a podcast [form], you could do the same thing without the airwaves, which is why as these layoffs are happening.
When I was leaving [SiriusXM], I gave a months notice and then they cut me off on that first week on the Friday. And it was so funny because at that time it was Women's History Month and they had this campaign called “She's Got The Mic”, and I was like, “she has a podcast actually about being a woman in media”.
I still love radio, I am not talking shit about radio. But the content created for radio and the content created for podcasts are different things.
KL: So teaching podcasting at Western University; I'm very interested to know how the young people are thinking about podcasting.
SB: I think most of what's being taught in podcasting these days is about sound design and audio. Matt [Cundill] and I talk about this all the time: no one talks about hosting, publishing, transcription. All these things that are a big part of the podcast ecosystem now.
I spent a whole class talking about why transcription is important. We're watching that SiriusXM lawsuit like hawks, where people hard of hearing in the US took it up to the highest court. Being straight up, I do not have transcriptions in every podcast on my network, so there's a lot of figuring out right now as we're moving forward.
The kids themselves are very engaged. These kids, they know what they care about, they're actively participating in conversations and activism. It's cool working with kids that have such a straight path in front of them to what they want.
KL: That’s interesting! My hope has been for Gen Z and Alpha that there's this activism within them – I've noticed this on TikTok a ton. But I've also heard “every young person wants to become a Youtuber or Influencer” – I was curious how much of that “influencer lifestyle” has translated into the podcasting space.
SB: Yeah, you're bringing me into “ego”. You have to have a healthy ego to podcast because you need to be confident in what you're presenting. You should not be podcasting because your ego tells you to. You should be podcasting because you have something important to say. I think that ego part is going to weed out a lot of podcasters really fast.
KL: At this point you must have had some folks reach out to you asking to be a part of your network. What are you noticing are their expectations?
SB: No one understands the costs of podcasting upfront, but to be fair, whether you join my network or not, you likely have the same costs, I would say.
I'm not charging anyone specifically to be a part of my network, but it's not unheard of to charge someone a hosting fee. So I would say price throws people for a loop and, and like keeping up with a consistent schedule.
I am one of the busiest people in the world right now, and I say that not of self importance but because I have, over the last two years since quitting Sirius XM, had my hands in many different things at once. So I'm in the process now of letting go of some of those things so I can focus right.
I have a workflow and a system and ways to keep my own podcast floating on schedule, I can't manage that for someone else.
KL: What are your goals for this network?
SB: Honestly, for everyone to be making a little bit of money a year from now feels like a pretty valid goal.
On top of that, the faces I see on the network – I love the faces I have now, but on that webpage I want there to be a diverse collective.
I'm going to be really, truly considering bringing on new people to the network, I just need to catch my breath!
What Sarah is loving:
Check out this Canadian Indie: Big Lash Energy
Recently Ambie Award nominated!
Jayna Marie has been a makeup artist beautifying brides and celebrities for the past 18 years. It's safe to say, she's mastered the art of girl talk.
Listen in as she spills the tequila on what she's learned from her own messy life, crazy dates, a broken heart and whatever may come up in her makeup chair! We’re learning how to live boldly, learn from our f*ck ups, celebrate the beauty in life’s messiest moments and love ourselves more deeply through it all.
True North Podcast Feature: Native Circles
Educating about the interconnections and significance of Native American, Alaska Native, and Indigenous experiences and matters.
Meet co-hosts Dr. Farina King, Dr. Davina Two Bears, and Eva Bighorse.
Dr. King is the Horizon Chair of Native American Ecology and Culture and an associate professor of Native American Studies at the University of Oklahoma.
Dr. Two Bears (Diné) is a Presidential Postdoctoral Fellow in the School for Human Evolution and Social Change at Arizona State University.
Bighorse (Cayuga and Diné) is an Indigenous human development advocate with expertise in tribal healthcare relations.
What’s going on in Canada’s podcast ecosystem:
New Releases:
March 30, 2024 — Do You Watch Anime? celebrated an exciting new episode featuring Anime English Voice Actor, Deneen Melody. They talk all about Deneen’s favourite anime to how she landed her voice acting roles.
April 1, 2024 — Season 6 of the award-winning Yes, We Are Open has launched! Al Grego travels to Alberta to record 8 new small business stories in Calgary, Banff and Canmore.
April 3, 2024 — The Harbinger Media Network is announcing the three new podcasts that join the network in its 16th wave expansion tomorrow! Stay tuned for the announcement on their website or newsletter.
You should know…
The Indigenous Screen Office has allocated $300,000 to 12 Indigenous-led podcasts. The Indigenous Screen Office and Acast have also joined forces, offering hosting and help funded by Google.org to all twelve shows. The podcasts included in the inaugural program are: Actors and Ancestors, Alex au pays de Gaby, Ancestral Science, The Aunties Dandelion, Creepy Teepee, Enweying - Our Sound, Matriarch Movement, Indigi-Demo-Itis, Kwu Sneqsilxw, Native Origin Stories, Tales From The Rez Podcast, and Truth Before Reconciliation.
Congratulations to Dear Alana, hosted by writer Simon Kent Fung, on it’s Ambie Award win for Best Personal Growth / Spirituality Podcast. The Ambies, hosted by Drag icon and podcaster, Trixie Mattel, were a fun watch last week! Justice for Let’s Make a Rom Com which in my humble opinion, deserved the win for Best Comedy.
featured Chidinma Azubuike, host and creator of the award-winning podcast, But What Do I Know, in the latest Spotlight Sunday edition. Check out the interview, along with the incredible new artwork and images from her recent rebrand!
Will Canadaland Shortcuts ever touch Israel? Nora Loreto addressed Jesse Brown about the shows role in critiquing media coverage of the genocide in Gaza.
Signal Hill Insights has concluded that Senior executives listen to a lot of podcasts. According to the study, execs are listening to upwards of five hours of podcasts per week.
10 programmers resigned from their roles en masse at Hot Docs in Toronto last week due to "personal reasons”. I’m keeping my eyes peels for what this might mean for the podcast festival typically held in the fall!
The top 10 most popular podcasts in Canada for February 2024 have been unveiled by Triton Digital. The top 10 include three Canadian podcasts all from the CBC, with the five including #1 Dateline NBC, #2 SmartLess, #3 Crime Junkie, #4 Front Burner, and #5 Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend.
Events:
Scouting a studio in Toronto? TalkBack Studios is hosting an open house in Toronto where people can come checkout their new location at Toronto Carpet Factory. The open house runs April 21-23 from 3-8PM. RSVP if you’d like to go!
For your pod:
Why does your listener retention look different on Apple vs Spotify? | Pacific Content
Tips To Ensure That Your Podcast Ads Aren't Annoying | Sounds Profitable
New tool for booking celebrity guests, Interview Hub. Find out who’s available and when they’re available to be on podcasts.
“Podcast Streams” is now allowing podcasts of all sizes promote their shows to music listeners on Spotify | Spotify
Just Joe (comfy cozy)…
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Kattie
@Podkatt (Twitter, Spotify, and Goodpods) | @PodtheNorth (Bluesky and Instagram)
