Are podcasts blurring truth and trust?

Vol. 70 - Rhys Waters talks the complex nature of trust in podcasts and the upcoming Echo Podcast Summit unpacking it all. Plus, some thoughts on my trip to London!

May 27, 2025

Hihi!! Happy Pod the North Tuesday!

In this issue:

The Podcast Show in London humbled me.
Rhys Waters says that podcasting has become a gray area of opinion and fact.
Canadian Indie: Life, Crime and Betrayal
True North Podcast Feature: Relentless Indigenous Woman
Plenty of upcoming events!
Support Darcy Michael and Jer Baer on their cancer journey, through a podcast!

BTW:

UPDATE: As of May 8, 2025, there are currently 38 long-term drinking water advisories in effect in 36 First Nations communities across Canada.

The Podcast Show in London humbled me.

Last week I was lucky enough to find myself at The Podcast Show in London for a panel on The Canadian Podcasting Landscape, with CBC’s Chris Oke and Acast Canada’s Yael Strasberg. We had a really awesome conversation about what a powerhouse Canada is when it comes to the podcast industry; from our talent working on the worlds most popular podcasts across boarders, to the growth of hyper-local podcasting, the nearly $500,000 dolled out to Indigenous podcasters by the Indigenous Screen Office, and so much more.

But maybe it was the jetlag because despite the great conversation, I found myself pretty grumpy about the turn-out to our session: maybe 10 people and mostly all Canadians themselves. Though I loved seeing familiar faces in the room, at an international conference I (probably naively) expected to see lots of new ones there too — especially given the recent threats to our sovereignty and how podcasts are contributing to the narrative around those threats; both normalizing us as the “51st State” and creating a united front against that. Isn’t anyone one else curious about this? It’s a sad reality to find yourself in when you’re been so embedded in the ecosystem; that Canada and its podcast industry just isn’t that important to global players despite how much we support them. It’s a humbling reality check no less.

The other side of the coin is that with over 350 speakers and our session being at lunchtime, it was probably pretty likely that we were going to see a small turnout. The show was a flurry of overlapping talks with plenty of space to network and explore. The big themes of the conference were, of course, video and marketing. Apple did a talk for the first time in a long time, there was a national broadcaster session about pitching, and a variety of talks on the creator economy and “how to make it big like I did”.

Notably the one conversation that remained to be seen was around the responsibility of podcasts and how they, as the new mass medium, are changing the world as we know it. But in Canadian fashion, we’re leading that conversation too, because we’re spending an entire day talking about it this June 19th in Halifax.

Thoughts from the Ecosystem:

Rhys Waters says that podcasting has become a gray area of opinion and fact.

“If you watched what happened in the US election last year, you saw the way that podcasting was used in a way it had never been used before, particularly to reach young men. For the first time, this mass medium is influencing people. What does that mean for Canada?”, Rhys Waters recently told me.

He’s Chief Creative at Podstarter, a podcast strategy and production company. He’s been in podcasting since 2014, having first worked with the BBC and now also the host of Canada Is Boring, a “moderately successful” Canadian comedy show. This year he’s added the Echo Podcast Summit to his already stacked roster of projects, and the theme for this inaugural summit is “trust and truth in podcasting”.

I caught up with Rhys to have a candid conversation about the responsibility of podcasts in this crazy world of misinformation and disinformation, the impact they’re having on the political and journalistic climates in Canada, the current power of opinion, and media literacy in podcasting.

This interview has been edited for clarity and length.

Rhys Waters: Podcasting is seen as this very trustworthy platform where you can build a really strong parasocial relationship with audiences. It can be used for good and bad, but also trust can be squandered. You can lose trust in a medium, and if people then come to the conclusion one day that podcasting is just full of quacks and weirdos, that could change the industry that we all work in.
The goal of [the Echo Podcast Summit] is to bring everyone together, have some interesting conversations, debates, speakers, and for people to leave that event going ‘I've heard some new ideas, I was challenged in my belief, maybe I should change the way I'm doing this work moving forward. Or maybe this is something I should be more loud about.’ You're not gonna go away with tips on growing an audience, but you are gonna go away with a head full of ideas and a better understanding of the power of podcasting, how it influences people, and the opportunities and pitfalls we might face as an industry in the future.

KL: Today, anybody can create their own sense of authority, and this is an especially interesting conversation in Canada where traditional media is crumbling.

Journalists have turned to podcasting to cover the stories they think are important with very little editorial overhead, but we’re also seeing the blurred lines between ‘this is a journalist doing journalism’ and ‘this is media criticism’. What’s your view on how this is playing out in Canada?

RW: Well, I'm a big fan of public broadcasting as a British person. The BBC is an immense point of pride for most British people and they don't mind paying for it. In Canada, the CBC also has that emotional connection to people above a certain age. But how does CBC be more involved? The BBC created BBC Three that was specifically a channel for younger people. I think CBC's opportunity of tapping into that younger generation is to find influencers and people who've built an audience and start to work with them, doing that across multiple platforms and nurturing that talent. There's a lot of young influencers who are doing cool work. There's an opportunity to have that influence of public broadcasting for people to really celebrate and enjoy what public broadcasting is.
But also I think that as the new mass medium, podcasting is a huge opportunity for smaller communities to be able to broadcast. For Canada's remote communities to share their perspectives and stories, I see more opportunity than risk in using this medium. As long as it's done right, I feel like Canada could be a real leader.
I was talking about this recently with one of our speakers, Pauline Deacon, about what if independent podcasters were given the opportunity to do training in fact checking, in quoting sources, in journalistic skills, to get certifications that would unlock funding opportunities or promotional opportunities? Imagine if you rewarded people doing those courses with opportunities to help them grow their show and connect better with their community. There's a lot that people can learn from legacy media and vice versa, and I think that the government could play a part in enabling that and growing that connection. Then Canadians could be known as the most reputable podcasters in the world!

KL: I could totally imagine a process where podcasters in Canada could get ‘Fact Check Certified’, and you could put that in your podcast description and land more credibility in some capacity.

But on that note, we know that audiences have parasocial relationships with podcast hosts, and how engaged they are into the podcast that they listen to. So from your perspective, how media literate do you think podcast audiences really are?

RW: I'll talk from experience: we have a listener of Canada Is Boring who has our artwork tattooed on their leg. People bake us things and deliver them to us. We've done those meetups with listeners and it's always been amazing. It's kind of weird, but once you start chatting you realize you have so much in common because they listen to your show and they like your perspective. That connection with an audience is crazy.
So with the 2025 election, [co-host] Jesse absolutely hated Pierre Poilievre and was surprised that he liked Mark Carney, and was vocal about that on the show. But we had listeners reach out to us to say, ‘well, I'm voting for Pierre but I appreciate that this is a space where it's fine to disagree on these issues’. We're really proud of that because that tell us that some people are listening and they don't agree with us, but they like the show for other reasons, not because of political alliances.
But you do get other people who are leaving one star reviews saying, ‘this is liberal propaganda’ and ‘how much are you getting paid?’. So there's a spectrum of, ‘you make me angry because you exist and you talk about something I don't like’, to ‘I disagree with you but I still feel included and welcome’. That's almost the literacy spectrum, where you're able to come to your own conclusions in an informed way versus people who are unable to consider a challenge in viewpoint — they will flock to shows that just reinforce those emotions and they don't care about the facts.
It depends on what the people are listening for. Do you want your opinion reinforced? Or are you listening for other reasons? That's where the literacy comes in with podcasting, cause it is a very emotional format. People tend to have an emotional reason for listening.

KL: The one thing you didn't mention there is people having had their minds changed or perspective shifted, which is interesting because you're right; maybe podcasting isn't a space to change perspectives because of how many options there are. People can just turn off a podcast and go somewhere and have their opinions reinforced instead.

RW: I think that to achieve that you have to go ‘story first’. Messaging about social responsibility has to be soft or earned. Anytime you have a ‘secret agenda’ in a podcast, you do have to earn the right for people to consider that point.
I think we're so used to people shouting online that people are numb to a one line statement saying, ‘stop doing this’ or ‘you should feel this way’. But if you introduce people to a good story and it opens their mind up to a different perspective or helps them grow empathy in a specific space, it's like a Trojan horse. It can't be preachy. You've gotta earn that right.
We made a podcast called Somebody Must Say These Things through Podstarter with the Transition House Association of Nova Scotia. It was all about making people aware of gender based violence. We focused on telling the story of Ginger, who was an executive director of a transition house but started out as a client. Her journey was a full 360 from the moment she realized she was a victim of gender-based violence, how she escaped, how she rebuilt her life with her daughter, all of these different stages, and it was never screaming; ‘you need to take responsibility for gender-based violence’. It was; ‘this is happening around us in everyone's communities all the time and can happen to anyone regardless of socioeconomic background, and here's the story of one person’.
The impact of that podcast was really huge. A lot of people would listen to it before they would go in for volunteering or job interviews at the Transition Houses. The feedback was that people were more informed and more motivated. Some people who needed support as a client actually listened to the podcast and it helped them understand that they needed help. It played a part in some policy changes here in Nova Scotia. If you lead with that story, it can shift how people feel.

KL: This is actually something that I feel like is underestimated when it comes to Reddit Stories podcasts. I've been listening to a few of them over the last couple of years and I’ve noticed an interesting trajectory where at first people are just totally engrossed in the story and their opinion on it. But over the years, I’ve noticed that hosts have started to notice trends in the stories they’ve read. I've heard hosts point out toxic masculinity and patriarchy, and they've come to have more interesting and nuanced conversations about misogyny and sexism simply by reading “Am I The Asshole” stories on Reddit.

So talk to me then about your perception of how much the average podcaster - and being one yourself - understands their authority over an audience?

RW: I think some people want influence, but it depends on why you've turned up to do a podcast. I feel like it may be bigheaded to go, ‘I've influence over these people’, but at the same time, if they're listening in the run up to the election, the kind of conversations we are having and the guests we're having on might influence some of their thoughts and feelings.
Those podcasters who really build a huge audience and a very authoritative audience, they do have a lot of influence. People will spend hours and hours with them every week. As a parent, when your kid hangs out with another kid who’s allowed to watch R rated movies, you start to see it rubbing off on your kid.
So I think that if you spend hours and hours of your week hanging out with certain voices, you’re being curated a particular kind of reality while convincing yourself that it's just people talking, just people asking questions. It's freedom of speech, not being aware that it's only maybe a very narrow view on the world that is being delivered to you.

KL: Are you subtweeting Joe Rogan right now?

RW: I mean, I've only ever really watched one episode and I think it was the Bernie Sanders episode. But I know people have looked at how many more far right voices appear on there, and I think that a podcast like his does have immense influence. Even if you don't take what he says too seriously and the people he has on too seriously, if that's how you spend a lot of your time listening, even on a subconscious level it’s gonna have an effect.

[Editor's note: Joe Rogan’s episode's average around 3 hours long with 4 episodes a week: 12 hours of listen time per week, or 1.5 full workdays]

I feel like a lot of podcasters actually tend to be quite humble because a lot of them started in their basement and they're just enjoying the ride. They can't believe how big they've got. I think some are blind to the influence, and aren't leveraging it in some kind of evil plan but they're not necessarily taking responsibility for realizing that some of the stuff they say is impacting their audiences. They go, ‘I'm just a podcaster. I'm just a guy,’ because that is the persona of most podcasters.
Look at the real world impact of the measles outbreaks that are going on, specifically with unvaccinated children. Podcasts have been one of the big mediums for anti-vaccination information and Joe Rogan has given plenty of platforms to people who are anti-vaccine. The result of that is kids getting this awful disease that should have been eradicated. Podcasting played a big role in kids and their health and the decisions that their parents are making. So you can't say there's no cost. There is potentially a huge cost when this messaging is delivered as ‘well, it's just their opinion’.
This gray area of opinion and fact is what podcasting is most of the time.

What Rhys is loving these days:

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Check out this Canadian Indie: Life, Crime and Betrayal

Tales of vulnerability and ultimate betrayal.

Best friends Tanya, Anna and Cristina dive into true crime stories, from lesser-known cases to the headlines you can't ignore. Uncover the untold stories that matter, with takes on pop culture and personal stories for blend of thought-provoking discussion and relatable moments.

True North Podcast Feature: Relentless Indigenous Woman

Here, education becomes rebellion. Resistance. Revolution.

A space for uncensored and unapologetic conversations on the lived realities of Indigenous Peoples. Dr. Candace Linklater, a proud Moose Cree First Nation educator, advocate, and scholar, invites you to listen, grow, and take meaningful action. Dr. Linklater has become a powerful voice in bold Indigenous education, truth-telling, and solidarity. Whether you are an Indigenous listener or an ally committed to learning, this podcast exists to challenge, inspire, and empower.

What’s going on in Canada’s podcast ecosystem:

Events:

May 29, 2025 — [VIRTUAL] But What Do I Know? is hosting a virtual screening for the movie, Village Keeper. This film, directed by Karen Chapman, follows the story of a Black Canadian single mother living in the City of Toronto who is trying to protect her children from neighbourhood violence and intergenerational trauma. Along the way she must also find herself, her joy and freedom. Register here!

June 1 & 4, 2025 — [TORONTO, ON & MONTREAL, QC] The Allusionist, the podcast from Helen Zaltzman that adventures in language, has two live shows coming up, in Toronto and Montreal! The shows are set to feature stories about f-words: fonts, friendship and ‘fuck’. Get your tickets now!

June 4, 2025 — [TORONTO, ON] The Nuts and Bolts of Podcast Production! Join Amanda Cupido at the Toronto Public Library Forest Hill Branch for a FREE workshop on podcast production at 4PM ET.

June 4, 2025 — [TORONTO, ON] Catch the CBC Live Podcast with Falen Johnson, part of iNdigital Days from ImagineNATIVE! Grab your tickets here!

June 8, 2025 — [TORONTO, ON] Catch the Reframeables Fireside Chat with celebrated author, Emma Donoghue! This is a rare opportunity to connect with one of the most influential voices in modern literature, with a glass of wine and snack! Get your tickets here.

June 19, 2025 — [HALIFAX, NS] Don’t miss the Echo Podcast Summit at the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia! This event is sure to be a great one, tackling one of the biggest questions in podcasting today: Who do we trust—and why? From influencers to podcasters, digital voices shape the way we think, but how much responsibility do they bear? Join the leading voices in media, academia, and digital culture to unpack it all. Limited tickets available—secure yours now!

June 22, 2025 — [HAMILTON, ON] Don’t miss the next Pod the North Community Picnic at Centennial Park in Hamilton! Podcasters Jessica Hart and Dawn Marie Walton (Opinionated Lushes) will be joining me for an open forum discussion on what indie podcasters need to thrive in Canada, and you should be there too! RSVP here.

Be sure to share your events and live shows with me!

New Releases:

May 7, 2025 — Get Queer is the new podcast from Pink Triangle Press that’s exploring how reality TV has shaped queer identity. Episodes feature conversations Zeke Smith (Survivor), Arewà (Are You the One?) and Racquel Chevremont (The Real Housewives of New York City). I LOVE LOVE LOVE this topic and can’t wait to listen.

May 12, 2025 — Other People’s Problems has returned for its fifth season! This time around, Hillary's clients are experiencing therapy with the assistance of psychedelic drugs.

May 18, 2025 — CANADALAND has put out a new episode with fellow podcasting writer, comedian, and notable badass,

Courtney Kocak

! The episode, “Confessions of a Girls Gone Wild Merch Girl”, tells the story of how Girls Gone Wild recruited in Canada in the early 2000s. In 2005, Courtney herself was a “merch girl” on the Girls Gone Wild tour bus, rolling through Red Deer, Banff, Kelowna, and she’s been processing this experience ever since. Was it fun? Was it coercive? Was it even legal? Was she exploited or was she the exploiter? Or was it all of the above?

You oughta know…

Canadian stoner gem and comedian, Darcy Michael, has launched a podcast to support his husbands recent cancer diagnoses and their journey together ahead! The Patreon exclusive show, SIDEQUEST, joins Darcy as he serves up a full dose of unfiltered, unhinged, and unapologetic chaos, diving into pop culture, life with his husband Jer, and whatever else fuels his ADHD that week. The show has already made a huge impact in supporting their long-term hotel stay in Vancouver while Jer undergoes cancer treatement. Please consider supporting these two wonderful humans!

Looking to use your podcasting and content creation skills for good? Check out Empact Exchange, a new community space and submission hub for people creating mission-driven audio. Powerful stories can create real change, but too often, meaningful audio projects struggle to get off the ground due to a lack of resources, collaborators, or visibility. Check out the latest edition of Sounds Like Impact to learn more about how to get involved!

Samantha Hodder

has released “The Definitive Narrative Database of 2025...so far” over on Bingeworthy! If you love narrative podcasts, this up-to-date and comprehensive database lists just about every series that has been published in 2025 to date, and includes more than 100 active links to the content. All material has been human researched. Trend analysis included. Check it out!